crock pot or crack pot

amother

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 3:48 pm

Before you go bashing OPs son, there are many opinions that a crockpot is not permissible on shabbat, unless it is lined with foil or the like. It has something to do with "cooking in a compost heap" - seriously, not making this up. There are certain crockpots that have a bottom heat element, which the "bowl" is placed on top and can be removed, no liner. and some with liners. It is the kind with the liner that your son doesn't use. True, his mothers house is still kosher, as she abides by an orthodox rabbis onion. But it is also true that your son, who follows a different rabbi presumably, could not eat that food. He did not call you treif or mechalel shabbat, but he holds differently and cant eat that food. It is not a minhag or stringency, to him it is his halacha. He should have told you this new onion before shabbat however so that you would not feel bad.

Rutabaga

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 4:16 pm

amother wrote:

I'm not sure if you mean opinion or inyan, but either way I'm having visions of a rabbi studying an onion very intensely. LOL

PinkFridge

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 4:57 pm

Rutabaga wrote:

amother wrote:

I'm not sure if you mean opinion or inyan, but either way I'm having visions of a rabbi studying an onion very intensely. LOL

Coming from you, Rutabaga, I take this very seriously.

amother

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 5:49 pm

Chazal prohibited the pot to be returned to the stove unless a number of conditions are fulfilled:

1. The pot is removed with the intention of returning it.
the intention was changed not to pull the plug and serve shabbos day too before shabbos - hence the intention was fully there
2. The pot is continuously held by the person while it is off the stove.
this is what we hold
3.The flame onto which the pot is returned is covered (Ketuma).
there is no flame on a crock pot
4. The food must be fully cooked and still warm (even if it is under Yad Soledes, as long as it is still warm — as explained in Section 2:9 regarding Ein Bishul Achar Bishul).
a burned hand would surely occur if you choose to serve food up without a utensil and there is no question of cooking after cooking in an already cooked pot of food one which was made early in the day to avoid any such question

Shuly

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 6:03 pm

amother wrote:

Chazal prohibited the pot to be returned to the stove unless a number of conditions are fulfilled:
3.The flame onto which the pot is returned is covered (Ketuma).
there is no flame on a crock pot
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Some people hold that the metal part of crockpot is like a flame because it gives off heat. Therefore, they line the inside of the crockpot with aluminum foil to make a blech between the crockpot and the liner.

I learned that the best way to set up a crockpot is:
1) Line it with aluminum foil for a blech.
2) Put an empty tuna fish can (or two) upside down under the liner to hold it up and to prevent "hatmana" (wrapping). Some people make aluminum foil balls for this, but they end up getting flattened so cans work better.
3) Cover or remove the dial before shabbos.

amother

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 8:39 pm

amother wrote:

Isramom8, it seems that OP removed the liner from the crockpot and replaced it, although the crockpot did not have a blech or covered controls.
I don't know how far-fetched it is to day that he couldn't eat from it.

Where did you get that as being the issue at hand? It was most certainly not his issue.

I apologize for misunderstanding.
I had thought that you took the insert (that's a better word than liner -- is that where the mistake lies?) out to serve from it on Friday night, while holding on to it and intending to put it back into the base. However, the base did not have any sort of blech, so your son did not want to eat from the food once it was returned to the crockpot.
As I said, I'm sorry for misunderstanding.

What was the story, then?

MaBelleVie

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 8:52 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

In any case, if the food was still hot, and fully cooked, you still don't get to a safek of bishul beshogeg. You know that Sefardim place cold solid food on the blech or plata lechatchila, right? We don't not eat because someone observed a different minhag. (I don't know if OP's food was solid, liquid or of an indeterminate consistency.)

No, you get to the issur d'rabanan of "mechazei kimevashel" bishogeg.

And I don't know why Sefardic practices are relevant here; Ashkenazim DO "not eat because someone observed a different minhag." What would you do if you were invited to a Sefardic home on Pesach and were served rice/legumes? Would you eat them because it's just a difference of minhagim?

In general, I think that the word "minhag" may be somewhat overused -- it spans the spectrum from mitzvah tantz to cheesecake on Shavuos to a genuine machlokes haposkim that is binding on all Ashkenazim/Sefardim. One can decide to/not to have a mitzvah tantz for the sake of shalom bayis. But a Sefardi can not start to follow the Rema likulah (e.g. eat chadash bizman hazeh) and Ashkenazim can not choose to follow the Beis Yosef in areas on which the Rema disagrees, just for the sake of shalom bayis. It's halacha, not some wishy-washy "someone does this, so it must be okay."

Who told you this? Being sefardi in mainly Ashkenazi environments my dh and his father discussed these issues with several prominent poskim, both Ashkenazi and sefardi. They were told that certain halachot and minhagim could be taken from another group under certain circumstances.

Also, sefardim are a lot less machmir than Ashkenazim in inyanei basar vechalav. I have yet to hear of an Ashkenazi talmid chacham who won't eat in the home of a sefardi who keeps halacha kbeit yosef. While those same halachot in an Ashkenazi home would be considered very bedieved, it isn't considered so when that is halacha lechatchila for the Baal habayit.

amother

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 9:10 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

amother wrote:

Quote:

Yes, but this was not the case here. The ba'al(as) habayis here was Ashkenazi.

I was responding to Isramom's saying that because Sefardim allow food to be put on an uncovered fire on Shabbos (no clue if this is true, sounds suspicious to me because AFAIK, this is a gezaira of Chazal, but that is not the point), OP's son should have had no problems eating the food. But OP gave no indication that she is Sefardi, and since OP's son did have an issue with it (and assuming that it is allowed for Sefardim), it is safe to assume that she is, in fact, Ashkenazi. In that case, the fact that it is permitted for Sefardim is irrelevant. Food that is the result of chilul Shabbos may not be eaten on Shabbos, and if the act is assur for Ashkenazim, it has the status of chilul Shabbos even if it is permissible for Sefardim.

(As an aside, if the chilul Shabbos was bishogeg, which it certainly seems to be, it is permitted for others to eat it on Shabbos, IIRC. In which case OP's son may have eaten the food. But again, the Sefardi/Ashkenazi part is irrelevant.)

JOOC, do you eat chadash/shechita which is non-Beis Yosef/things that are considered bishul akum according to the Bais Yosef but not the Rema in Ashkenazi homes?