crock pot or crack pot

MaBelleVie

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 10:22 pm

amother wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

amother wrote:

Quote:

In any case, if the food was still hot, and fully cooked, you still don't get to a safek of bishul beshogeg. You know that Sefardim place cold solid food on the blech or plata lechatchila, right? We don't not eat because someone observed a different minhag. (I don't know if OP's food was solid, liquid or of an indeterminate consistency.)

No, you get to the issur d'rabanan of "mechazei kimevashel" bishogeg.

And I don't know why Sefardic practices are relevant here; Ashkenazim DO "not eat because someone observed a different minhag." What would you do if you were invited to a Sefardic home on Pesach and were served rice/legumes? Would you eat them because it's just a difference of minhagim?

In general, I think that the word "minhag" may be somewhat overused -- it spans the spectrum from mitzvah tantz to cheesecake on Shavuos to a genuine machlokes haposkim that is binding on all Ashkenazim/Sefardim. One can decide to/not to have a mitzvah tantz for the sake of shalom bayis. But a Sefardi can not start to follow the Rema likulah (e.g. eat chadash bizman hazeh) and Ashkenazim can not choose to follow the Beis Yosef in areas on which the Rema disagrees, just for the sake of shalom bayis. It's halacha, not some wishy-washy "someone does this, so it must be okay."

Who told you this? Being sefardi in mainly Ashkenazi environments my dh and his father discussed these issues with several prominent poskim, both Ashkenazi and sefardi. They were told that certain halachot and minhagim could be taken from another group under certain circumstances.

Also, sefardim are a lot less machmir than Ashkenazim in inyanei basar vechalav. I have yet to hear of an Ashkenazi talmid chacham who won't eat in the home of a sefardi who keeps halacha kbeit yosef. While those same halachot in an Ashkenazi home would be considered very bedieved, it isn't considered so when that is halacha lechatchila for the Baal habayit.

Yes, but this was not the case here. The ba'al(as) habayis here was Ashkenazi.

I was responding to Isramom's saying that because Sefardim allow food to be put on an uncovered fire on Shabbos (no clue if this is true, sounds suspicious to me because AFAIK, this is a gezaira of Chazal, but that is not the point), OP's son should have had no problems eating the food. But OP gave no indication that she is Sefardi, and since OP's son did have an issue with it (and assuming that it is allowed for Sefardim), it is safe to assume that she is, in fact, Ashkenazi. In that case, the fact that it is permitted for Sefardim is irrelevant. Food that is the result of chilul Shabbos may not be eaten on Shabbos, and if the act is assur for Ashkenazim, it has the status of chilul Shabbos even if it is permissible for Sefardim.

(As an aside, if the chilul Shabbos was bishogeg, which it certainly seems to be, it is permitted for others to eat it on Shabbos, IIRC. In which case OP's son may have eaten the food. But again, the Sefardi/Ashkenazi part is irrelevant.)

JOOC, do you eat chadash/shechita which is non-Beis Yosef/things that are considered bishul akum according to the Bais Yosef but not the Rema in Ashkenazi homes?

I know it isn't relevant to op, I was just responding to your point that one group can't rely on the halachot or minhagim of another group.

Both my dh and his father were given psakim to rely on the kashrut standards in their Ashkenazi yeshivot, despite differences that you mentioned- yashan, chalak by, bishul akum. In our community, sef and ash eat in each others homes as well, as per the psak of the rabbanim here.

saw50st8

Mon, Feb 18 2013, 6:42 am

OOTBubby wrote:

If this were my son, I would find out exactly how he holds it can be used and would do it his way when he is home in the future.

I have a large family (12 married children and close to 4 dz. granchildren BE"H) and my policy has always been to fully accommodate any of their chumras when they are present. I changed somethings in the house completely, and some for when they're present.

I want all of my family to be comfortable eating here and am willing to do what is necessary for that to happen.

Depends on how old the son is.

If the son is barely a teenager and wants his family to take on a chumra, he really has to discuss it. RESPECTFULLY. Not just demand and attempt to make his mother feel like she isn't keeping halacha, especially when she is (even if she wasn't keeping halacha, its still a fine line to cross).

If this is an adult child who has taken these chumras on his own (its a lot easier to be machmir on someone elses back), then he still needs to approach his family about the times when he comes home.

busydev

Thu, Feb 20 2014, 2:53 pm

well right off the bat with a blech there is nothing wrapping the sides of the pot.
as people said it wouldnt be an issue if she had a crock pot with a heating element on bottom that did not go up the sides. but being that it did it may be considered wrapping acc to poskim (obv op's sons rav holds this way). there may well be other opnions, im not an expert to say either way.

also there was a pp who said a crockpot has no flame... the heating element is considered a flame. if someone had an electric oven (no flame) would they be able to have a pot on the burner (no blech) remove it and return it? I dont think so.
im not so sure op's son was wrong here halachically, tho it does sound like he went about it in the wrong way. could have just passed on the food without making a big deal about it.

lkwdmommy

Thu, Feb 20 2014, 4:27 pm

busydev wrote:

im not so sure op's son was wrong here halachically, tho it does sound like he went about it in the wrong way. could have just passed on the food without making a big deal about it.

Crock pots on Shabbos are so complicated that each family has to get their own psak. Go from one house to the next - even those on the same frum spectrum - and you will see different in each. My very Chareidi posek said we can use the crock pot with no lining, but can't return the insert once it was removed. Others will say only with lining and covering the dial. Yet others will say different. So, OP might have been doing just fine with her psak till her DS came home one fine day, having found a different posek (in Yeshiva, I imagine)