Escaping My Religion Leah Vincent on the Katie Couric Show

Fox

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 6:23 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

Getting back to the original point, I think this demonstrates quite well that it's not quite accurate to discount the approach of kicking a misbehaving kid out of the home as not at all a normative yeshivish approach. It might not be common, but clearly it's an acceptable approach.

Notwithstanding the Mishpacha article, which, again, was a zeitgeist piece -- not a piece about advice for parents -- I cannot think of a single case in my network of acquaintances who received such advice. I have heard others, including people such as Rabbi Matisyahu Salomon, sh"lita, say strongly that we must do everything possible to keep kids who are having such difficulties at home with their families.

Maybe 20 years ago this was viewed as a viable option -- I do seem to remember it being discussed in the Jewish Observer -- but not for quite a while. I think Rabbi Horowitz's approach is far more common.

Why must every single thread turn into a battle between "Chareidi" (a word that has no meaning outside EY) and "non-Chareidi." Yes. This young woman obviously suffered terribly. Yes. Her community probably did too little to help or encourage her. Yes. There are things in the Chareidi and Yeshivish/Chassidish worlds that are terrible and should change.

We've really, truly got it. Unfortunately, none of us can sprinkle the shallow, ignorant, or stupid people in our respective communities with fairy dust. Believe me, I wish we could! We don't have to give up, but we can't go around resenting every single nail in the world just because our hammer doesn't always work.

MaBelleVie

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 6:36 pm

sequoia wrote:

I think we all make choices.

For instance, if you can't afford an MO day school, where will you send your kids? A yeshiva or public school?

So if you are choosing to belong to a community wholeheartedly, part and parcel, to conform to it, then you are in essence approving of everything they do. It's in your name now. Waving away criticism just looks sad, and silly.

I really don't understand your argument at all. What constitutes belonging to a community wholeheartedly? No one signs a contract. People align themselves with a community they most closely identify with. How is that in essence approving of everything they do? No one will find an entire community of people with whom they agree on every issue, whether small or large. Heck, I don't see eye to eye with my own husband on many issues. We are happily married BH, but we certainly don't approve of everything the other does. And a community is far from being a marriage.

sequoia

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 6:39 pm

You can find a community that *most closely aligns* to your personal beliefs. Not perfectly, but almost.

Fox appears to say, at times, "Everything about the yeshivish world is absurd and often hurtful, but it's my community." Well... why? When you know perfectly well that in any normal school no girl would be made to feel bad if she didn't bring money for souvenirs, for example. Some people shop, others just browse. Duh. What's the big deal? Her daughter was singled out in such an unnecessary and hurtful way, and this is just one example among many. So... why be a part of it? What is the good? Especially when any criticism is waved away with a "oh how boring, the same stories all over again." "The same stories all over again" isn't boring, it's TRAGIC!

MaBelleVie

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 6:42 pm

anais wrote:

FTR, Leah Vincent's great-uncle was R' Avigdor Miller.

This is her father:

http://www.hojmi.org/rabbi.php

Her family is as "in" and mainstream yeshivish as it gets. R' Shmuel Kamenetzky was her mesader kiddushin - she had a frum wedding, buttoned up to her chin, not because she believes in a word of it, but because she is as conciliatory as she can be expected to be toward her family. Every word she said on Katie is true.

What does any of that have to do with what she said in the interview?

anais

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 7:27 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

anais wrote:

What does any of that have to do with what she said in the interview?

Forgive me. First, this is a thread about her, and no one seems to have any idea who she is and where she is coming from. Several people remarked about that. Naturally, I assumed that a bit about her background might have a place in the thread about her and her appearance on Katie, but it appears I was mistaken. If I could, I would take it back. Sorry for letting you know which family she comes from.

As for my vouching for her being truthful, well, that was my response to people suggesting there are gaps, things don't add up, etc. Again, sorry for thinking that somehow any of this belonged in *this* thread of all threads!

MaBelleVie

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 8:24 pm

anais wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

anais wrote:

What does any of that have to do with what she said in the interview?

OK... No need to get all snarky. I appreciate the background info. I was remarking on the way you worded your post- as if the information on her background was proof that her story was accurate. It seemed as though you were linking the two. Thank you for clarifying your intent.

harriet

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 10:31 pm

anais wrote:

Ok, TOTALLY know who she is-thanks for that identifying part (maiden name)! Some parts of her story are most likely not true-she grew up OOT yeshivish (not Lakewood yeshivish) and some of her siblings went to college and I don't think it was considered crazy at all!

I do remember her going to Israel at around age 16 also (I actually am pretty sure it was a Neve program) but of course every story has shades of truth and non truths to it. I feel terrible for both her and her family. . .

BlueRose52

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 11:26 pm

Fox wrote:

Notwithstanding the Mishpacha article, which, again, was a zeitgeist piece -- not a piece about advice for parents....

Can you please explain what you mean by this? I genuinely don't understand the difference. True, the article was reflecting a zeitgeist, but I don't see that as separate from advice. The advice people give reflects the zeitgeist of their community. I have no doubt that people take their cues as to how to behave from articles like this. And not just everyday lay people, but even rabbonim or other mechanchim would hear a perspective like this, coming from a respected mechanech and it would influence them as to how to approach this issue when people seek their advice on the topic. I really don't understand what you mean when you say it's only a zeitgeist piece and not advice. The whole tone of the article was advice, wasn't it?

yogabird

Thu, Jun 06 2013, 2:45 am

BlueRose52 wrote:

lkwdmommy wrote:

And, BTW, this Rabbi is not a fire breathing fanatic. He is an open minded, level-headed, very experienced mechanech.

This only proves what I say on so many threads here: The extremism that is typically found on the fringes doesn't stay there. It spreads to even mainstream and "normal" communities.

To me, it just looks like even people in mainstrean, normal communities retain an outdated and rigid view of how to deal with rebellious children.

I don't see how the opinion that such kids need to be taught that if the will defy the prescribed order ther will be no room for them among family and friends is an example of some newfangled chareidi extremist views that has no precedence in "mainstream" judaism.

It's a kickback to shtetl life. They're just not up to date on the psychology of hurt and rebelliousness.

BlueRose52

Thu, Jun 06 2013, 3:28 am

yogabird wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

lkwdmommy wrote:

And, BTW, this Rabbi is not a fire breathing fanatic. He is an open minded, level-headed, very experienced mechanech.

This only proves what I say on so many threads here: The extremism that is typically found on the fringes doesn't stay there. It spreads to even mainstream and "normal" communities.

I think that's a totally legitimate way of seeing it too. Although I'm not really sure if I agree with you that this is an old-fashioned way of dealing with it. I recall hearing plenty of stories where frum and non-frum lived together in harmony back when people would come from Europe to the US. It's all anecdotal, don't really know what the widespread accepted practice was.

Not that it really matters if this is evidence of the trend or not, but even if what you say is true, I don't think it's contradicting what I was saying. I never said the extremist views were all newfangled ideas. Some indeed are, but the main characteristic of extremist views, new or not, is that they were always something typically on the fringe. (Think of the stricter tznius standards that have been around for a loooong time in various communities, but only recently have been adopted more widely.) Even if that outdated approach used to exist, has this been the approach typically taken in contemporary frum life? Not from what I know of. So the fact that an outdated extreme practice is gaining currency (as evidenced by a noted mechanech touting it in a mainstream publication) is to me, evidence of growing extremism.

HindaRochel

Thu, Jun 06 2013, 5:12 am

Whether or not the author repudiated his article to some degree in a blog post doesn't take away from the fact that his words can very well be construed to mean "cast out the bad child". It is very difficult to turn

Quote:

A rebellious child does not belong in our home until he at least tries to conform and change his actions. He must know that certain actions that cross a "red line" will leave him isolated in a way that his friends won't be able to help him through.

into anything else but getting the child locked up somewhere; the "his friends won't be able to help him through." is quite caustic.

BTW this sounds less like casting out and more like locked up in a school or such where rules are very strict and the child can't leave. Such places do exist still.

I do know of a cases where a parents gave forth that their child was mentally ill (seriously mentally ill) because they were rebellious and tried to convince others of this fact. The overall message is of course that the child wasn't to be believed no matter what they said, they were making up everything.

yogabird

Thu, Jun 06 2013, 5:30 am

BlueRose52 wrote:

yogabird wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

lkwdmommy wrote:

And, BTW, this Rabbi is not a fire breathing fanatic. He is an open minded, level-headed, very experienced mechanech.

This only proves what I say on so many threads here: The extremism that is typically found on the fringes doesn't stay there. It spreads to even mainstream and "normal" communities.

We both agree that it's fringe, but..

My point was that I don't think this kind of thinking is on the fringe and seeping inward, I think it's on the fringe and on it's way out.

But the fact that a magazine like Mishpacha that considers itself mainstream would opt to publish an opinion
like that indeed boggles the mind.

(I think that in the past, frum and not frum lived together in harmony as a community, but where family was concerned, people were a lot less tolerant...)

MaBelleVie

Thu, Jun 06 2013, 10:00 am

Look, there are two options here. Either you take what she said at face value, and her parents are crazy. The only "infractions" she mentioned were a desire to attend college and wearing a tight sweater. For that they threatened to lock her up, brought her home from Israel, kicked her out of the house and cut off support?

Or, more likely, there are significant gaps in the story. In which case no one but she and her parents know the truth, and it is beyond any of us to determine who was possibly justified.