And you thought the other stuff I write is kefira

bamamama

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 3:24 pm

So I'm thinking about Tisha B'Av today like everyone else. I read some history and watched some documentaries last night and I can totally mourn for the destruction of the Temples as well as for all the suffering and tragedy we have endured.

But how is fasting and afflicting ourselves going to help? The Beis HaMikdash is going to be rebuilt because I'm stinky and sitting on the floor? I had the thought (I'm sure not original) that wouldn't it make more sense to commemorate Tisha B'Av and all the suffering perpetrated on our people throughout the ages by working to alleve suffering of others? People all over the world are suffering their own churbans as I sit here.

I'm just really having a hard time intellectualizing the observance of the day.

fromthedepths

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 3:36 pm

And I thought this was going to be real kefira. Got too excited Wink

. Just kidding.

Seriously, though, Tisha B'Av is not for doing. It's for feeling. It's only after we feel the pain fully that we are able to act and use it in a productive way. It's not supposed to be intellectual. It's supposed to be emotional.

Sudy

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 3:37 pm

Lady Godiva wrote:

On Tish'ah Be'av we mourn the loss of the Temple. We are not bringing it back by fasting. Our year-round actions should be geared to bringing the redemption.

Perfect. Our actions in our every day life should be "ohr lagoyim" a light onto the nations. Tisha B"av should take us out of our complacency and make us think about this long galus.

chani8

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 3:43 pm

All that affliction is for mourning, but it's applicable for today as well, to encourage us to make tshuva, as is the point of every fast - not to just mourn, but also to make tshuva. We need to make tshuva for causing the BH to not be rebuilt today.

So, I don't know about 'feeling' as someone above said, but I do know that we should contemplate (and be sad and sorry about) our own actions that may have contributed to the BH not being rebuilt by now.

yogabird

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 3:50 pm

I don't know if this is the kind of answer you're looking for, but one of the most pshat reasons given by the rishonim for fasting on all the fast days related to the churban is that fasting forces our body to burn some of its stored fat as an atonement for the korbanos that were burned and that were abolished due to our sins.

So I don't even know if the fasting part is a sign of mourning. The other issurim of tisha be'av apply to aveilim as well, but there is absolutely no mention of fasting in any of those laws, because fasting is an atonement as opposed to a sign of mourning.

As for all the other signs of mourning, I don't think the refraining from action is the actual mourning, but rather, I think it's sort of freeing us from mundane distractions to give us time reflect on the loss.

chani8

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 3:55 pm

yogabird wrote:

I thought the freeing from mundane activities was soley a YK thing.

But your first paragraph is supported in Mincha shmonah esray (at the end), where we say, "may this fast be an atonement..."

yogabird

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 4:00 pm

Yom Kippur that's for sure, and fasting is included there.

About the laws of mourning and tisha bav in general, I don't know. It was sort of my own thought.

What do you think? Are the actions supposed to bring on the feelings, or do the feelings naturally lead to those types of actions?

Is it natural for someone who's just lost a loved one to not want to bathe, wear makeup, wear comfortable shoes?

bamamama

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 4:02 pm

fromthedepths wrote:

And I thought this was going to be real kefira. Got too excited Wink

sorry to disappoint Wink

I'm still thinking about this. I might not be able to reply with what I really think per the rules of the site.

myself

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 4:05 pm

If we were truly mourning we wouldn't want to eat, do laundry and other mundane things. When a person sits shiva and is in aveilus, there is no benefit to the niftar through their not bathing and changing clothes etc., but it's the way of mourning. [Apologies if I'm not being clear in my fast-induced fuzziness]

May our mourning be curtailed by the coming of Moshiach!

bamamama

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 4:07 pm

yogabird wrote:

so are we supposed to act on Tisha b'Av as though the churban has just befallen us? Again, I think the message is lost on us. The days befor TbA we hear lots about sinas chinam and people are extra careful because "it's so close to TbA" How does this make sense? And, after 2000 years, shouldn''t we be channeling our sense of mourning into productive activities?

yogabird

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 4:15 pm

bamamama wrote:

yogabird wrote:

The way I see it is that it's an anniversary.

To me, an anniversary is day of reflection and reminiscing.We do acts of love to strengthen our marriage all year round, and we do good deeds as a remembrance for a departed soul all year round, but when that time of the year comes around, we sort of stop and just remember.

chani8

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 4:17 pm

So you want to 'do something' and fasting and afflicting seems like a waste to you.

To me, it's like a Memorial Day for the Jews. I spend this one day in affliction, and the affliction is what helps me to connect to my ancestors, who went for more than one day starving and miserable.

Would you call Memorial Day a waste and that we should just skip the mourning and go do chessed instead?

chani8

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 4:19 pm

fromthedepths wrote:

It says that if the Beis Hamikdash was not rebuilt in our days it is as if it was destroyed in our days.

Exactly. That's why we are meant to make tshuva on it, as well.

bamamama

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 4:24 pm

chani8 wrote:

Ok, point.

groisamomma

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 4:25 pm

chani8 wrote:

Well put.

gold21

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 7:13 pm

I think every person should just focus on her spiritual side today, connecting with the reality of why there is pain in this world and how we can understand all the pain. Because sometimes I can't wrap my head around the suffering (such as with Chaim Dovid, whose chemo journey was chronicled on this site) and I am trying to use Tisha B'Av to work on understanding it and understanding our purpose in this world. Listening to shiurim and just thinking about it.

In other words, Tisha B'Av should be used to further our own connection to Hashem and our own understanding of this world. Our mourning for the Beish Hamikdash benefits our neshamos and benefits us, even if it doesn't do anything concrete and physical to change the reality of suffering in this world.

greenfire

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 7:20 pm

can you imagine how yirmiyahu felt when he saw the destruction & his navuah to come true ...

we're all suffering the loss of the churban ... look at this world

I think if a person has actually experienced mourning and/or shiva - one can relate more to not caring whether or not we eat, bathe, or have zex

Miri1

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 11:52 pm

It's one day, well actually a clim@x of three weeks, where we take on many halachot and minhagim that should put us into the frame of mind to actually feel the loss. (if we don't naturally feel the galut)

If we don't really feel and recognize the pain of the state of our people, we can't be motivated to really act.

But I'm with you that 10th of Av would be a great day for some action!

I heard a very inspiring talk on chessed this afternoon...