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When is it abuse?
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 12:23 pm
amother wrote:
12. I got scared and spoke to a social worker and told her all the details. She said it's probably okay. But I'm still worried.


I think you should be worried. Who was touching him and/or who was he touching?
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 12:30 pm
I am so so so so so so happy I am reading all these posts cuz it was in they were in my head and I just didnt know how to word it. and I did ask a question yesterday and I was accused of a troll. so I am so happy. will be watching this one.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 12:31 pm
chani8 wrote:
amother wrote:
When dd was 4 she was playing by a neighbor. The 7 yr old older brother locked her and friend in a room and insisted dd pull down her pants. She kept saying her mother doesn't let. He threatened to beat her up if she didn't listen. She she listened and he put his hand by her tush. She then got dressed and came home.
She told me what happened, I had a long talk with her, explained what HE did was wrong, she was right to tell me, etc.
now honestly this was probably an "anise" situation since he was older, but these kids were really little. I can't imagine this 7 year old really knew what he was doing. I consulted with a school psychologist and social worker and followed their advice on dealing with dd. but I'd probably refer to this as highly inappropriate play/behavior as opposed to abuse, since he was so young.


Sorry, amother, this was clearly molestation. That 7 year old has serious problems.


What??? The kid is 7! It should be brought to the parents attention what happened but I'm more worried about the threat "I'll beat you up" rather than the request. It is so normal for a 7 year old to be curious about their bodies and that of the opposite gender.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 12:32 pm
amother wrote:
Where is the line between molestation and experimentation? Is it called molestation when a 9 year old girl touches her 8 year old brother's private? What if they were friends? What about if the brother and sister were a little older? Is it molestation if a 4th grade boy tells his friend to touch his pen*s in the locker room? What about two 12 year old girls touching each other's developing breasts?

We all hopefully know it's molestation if an adult (over 18?) touches a child much younger but what if they are kids?
Just wondering where is the line drawn between molestation and normal experimentation?


Experimentation is done between ages 4 and 6, among peers, same aproximate ages. It's not violent, it's "playing doctor".

Your other examples: the 9 year old was molesting the 8 yr old brother. Same if they were friends. Especially problematic if they were older. The 4th grader was trying to molest his friend. Two 12yo girls touching each other sounds just inappropriate, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them was the instigator and more powerful and the other felt manipulated. 12 is very old to be touching private parts on another person. A 3 year old grabs the babysitters breasts, but by 12, sorry, something is wrong.

Do people not teach boundaries? By 6 yrs old, a child should know rules of privacy, basic tznius, basic right and wrong.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 12:35 pm
amother wrote:
chani8 wrote:
amother wrote:
When dd was 4 she was playing by a neighbor. The 7 yr old older brother locked her and friend in a room and insisted dd pull down her pants. She kept saying her mother doesn't let. He threatened to beat her up if she didn't listen. She she listened and he put his hand by her tush. She then got dressed and came home.
She told me what happened, I had a long talk with her, explained what HE did was wrong, she was right to tell me, etc.
now honestly this was probably an "anise" situation since he was older, but these kids were really little. I can't imagine this 7 year old really knew what he was doing. I consulted with a school psychologist and social worker and followed their advice on dealing with dd. but I'd probably refer to this as highly inappropriate play/behavior as opposed to abuse, since he was so young.


Sorry, amother, this was clearly molestation. That 7 year old has serious problems.


What??? The kid is 7! It should be brought to the parents attention what happened but I'm more worried about the threat "I'll beat you up" rather than the request. It is so normal for a 7 year old to be curious about their bodies and that of the opposite gender.


It was violent. He locked them in the room with the intention of touching their private parts. He threatened her with violence. He touched her private parts despite her clearly saying 'no!' He's a danger.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 12:36 pm
chani8 wrote:
amother wrote:
chani8 wrote:
amother wrote:
When dd was 4 she was playing by a neighbor. The 7 yr old older brother locked her and friend in a room and insisted dd pull down her pants. She kept saying her mother doesn't let. He threatened to beat her up if she didn't listen. She she listened and he put his hand by her tush. She then got dressed and came home.
She told me what happened, I had a long talk with her, explained what HE did was wrong, she was right to tell me, etc.
now honestly this was probably an "anise" situation since he was older, but these kids were really little. I can't imagine this 7 year old really knew what he was doing. I consulted with a school psychologist and social worker and followed their advice on dealing with dd. but I'd probably refer to this as highly inappropriate play/behavior as opposed to abuse, since he was so young.


Sorry, amother, this was clearly molestation. That 7 year old has serious problems.


What??? The kid is 7! It should be brought to the parents attention what happened but I'm more worried about the threat "I'll beat you up" rather than the request. It is so normal for a 7 year old to be curious about their bodies and that of the opposite gender.


It was violent. He locked them in the room with the intention of touching their private parts. He threatened her with violence. He touched her private parts despite her clearly saying 'no!' He's a danger.


But my stance is always, kids don't make this stuff up themselves. Who is molesting the 7 year old? Who did this to him? Or where did he get these ideas??? He is likely in danger, too.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 12:41 pm
chani8 wrote:
amother wrote:
When dd was 4 she was playing by a neighbor. The 7 yr old older brother locked her and friend in a room and insisted dd pull down her pants. She kept saying her mother doesn't let. He threatened to beat her up if she didn't listen. She she listened and he put his hand by her tush. She then got dressed and came home.
She told me what happened, I had a long talk with her, explained what HE did was wrong, she was right to tell me, etc.
now honestly this was probably an "anise" situation since he was older, but these kids were really little. I can't imagine this 7 year old really knew what he was doing. I consulted with a school psychologist and social worker and followed their advice on dealing with dd. but I'd probably refer to this as highly inappropriate play/behavior as opposed to abuse, since he was so young.


Sorry, amother, this was clearly molestation. That 7 year old has serious problems.

I agree- and why in heavens name dont the parents know about this? what kind of guts a child of seven to do htis. I would have a reall check with my child to a professional. and think if there is anything in his surrounding. anyone else doing sth like that to him. cuz where would he know this type of behavior unless someone doing it to him
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 12:47 pm
Threads like these happen periodically, where hysterical mothers get on here, hoping desperately to get validation that everything is just nothing. Hoping to minimze what's happening with their child.

Sorry, but there's nothing good to come out of denial.

If something is happening in your home, or with your kid, then you need to deal with it.

If your child has been exposed to s-x, then the best thing you can do is start s-x education. Start with how babies are born, and get all the way to s-x being kadosh in marriage. Include pleasuring being healthy and normal, with the key factor being you do this to yourself, nobody is allowed to touch you and you are not allowed to touch others. Touching outside of marriage is not permitted. Explain why kids should not do s-xual things to each other. Include also, safe touch, and saying no, and talking to mom whenever there is a problem.

ETA Discuss in an age appropriate manner, discussing what they need to know to stay safe. Obviously a young child does not need to know everything yet! I was referring to what needs to be discussed with older children, especially the 12 year old.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 12:52 pm
when my friends and I were about eight we sweet talked my annoying little brother, conned him into getting naked, then danced around him laughing.

some people think this is normal. deep in the back of my head it seems exceptionally cruel and abusive. I still feel really bad about it.

anon, obviously
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 12:52 pm
well at the very least I would not let my kids be alone with that 7 year old or play at that house and I would praise my child ongoing for letting me know and keep it a teachable moment about the need to say "no", boundaries, and the need to tell me etc. without overreacting which could give her a negative message which would not help her.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 12:56 pm
when I was a kid (BT here) a neighborhood boy (maybe 7?) one of my sibs age told a younger sib to pull down her bathing suit -- sib that brat's age beat up the "bully boy" and told younger sib never to do that "show privates" and told mother

teach kids laws of yichud at an early age
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 12:58 pm
while not okay it may not be "abuse" and police worthy - as others have said hallmarks can include age differential, not a peer ie counselor, much older, authority figure, power differential, told not to tell, force, etc

when in doubt, ask an expert without getting the kids involved initially
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 1:07 pm
I think it is very harsh to say a child who doesn't know better ie. doesn't know about s@x can be a child molester. It should definitely be spoken about and used as a teachable moment but that initiator is not an abuser. My ds at the age of 7 was convinced (coerced) to touch another boys privates. Actually that 7 year old grabbed ds's hand and put it on his pen*s. I do not think that child was "molesting" my child but I did use that as a teachable moment. What the child did was inappropriate but is he an abuser? NO.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 1:16 pm
My husband was three when a neighbor boy who was the ripe old age of six forced him to take his aiver in his mouth. My husband remembers it, never told his mother but knew not to play with that kid again. He was mentally affected by this.
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carpediem




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 1:23 pm
I believe the problem with this is that children cant always distinguish what is 'experimenting' and what is molestation. Therefor even though they may not be scarred from showing their privates to their best friend when they play doctor, its safest to make a default policy of NO ONE can touch your privates.
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black sheep




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 3:47 pm
every child, at some point, is exposed to inappropriate s-xual advances. there is no reason to get scared and panicky over "was he/she abused?" the permanent or rather long term damage has very little to do with the actual incident and much more to do with how the child and parents handle the incident.

first: if the child feels comfortable telling his/her parents, that is already a great sign for his/her prognosis. there should never be any shame (or panic) in discussion things of a s-xual nature, or anything inappropriate (since children cannot be expected to determine what is s-xual and what isn't.) for example, my kids know that some things are private and not to be discussed in front of others, but nothing is too private to be discussed with mommy and abba.

second: once the child brings the incident to his/her parents attention, it should be treated as a normal part of life, rather than "oh no I can't believe that happened to you!" your reaction will affect your child more than the incident itself.

third: remember that there is no reason to panic. it is a teachable moment. teach your kids that they are in control of their own bodies, and how to say no, and how to discuss these issues in a non-shameful way. that will help them so much more in the long run than trying to determine if they were technically abused or not.

(all this applies to the grey area of children experimenting and even going too far. of course, if a child is molested by an adult, or even by a much older child, you also have to discuss with him the fact that the older person took advantage of him, but the don't-panic factor still remains.)
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2013, 7:08 pm
I'm the anon who wrote about my 4 year old dd with that 7 yr old boy. I want to be clear that I worked with a professional about how to deal with the incident as far as my dd was concerned. Told me what to say, praised her for telling me, etc.

She strongly recommended I tell the parents. A 7 yr old boy who does this doesn't make it up. There was likely an adult in the picture and the parents need to know.
However I was a very selfish parent and didn't. Why? Because that kid bullied my dd for weeks and the parents refused to deal with it. Sometimes they even blamed dd for "antagonizing" him by being outside with a new toy or treat and he was jealous. These are not workable people. I feel sorry for their son that he probably went through something, but I honestly doubt they'd believe it or go check it out with a professional. They would just be mad at me. And blame dd for it somehow.
So as wrong and horrible as it may sound, I didn't tell them. I felt I was doing what's best for my dd.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 18 2013, 8:21 am
amother wrote:
I'm the anon who wrote about my 4 year old dd with that 7 yr old boy. I want to be clear that I worked with a professional about how to deal with the incident as far as my dd was concerned. Told me what to say, praised her for telling me, etc.

She strongly recommended I tell the parents. A 7 yr old boy who does this doesn't make it up. There was likely an adult in the picture and the parents need to know.
However I was a very selfish parent and didn't. Why? Because that kid bullied my dd for weeks and the parents refused to deal with it. Sometimes they even blamed dd for "antagonizing" him by being outside with a new toy or treat and he was jealous. These are not workable people. I feel sorry for their son that he probably went through something, but I honestly doubt they'd believe it or go check it out with a professional. They would just be mad at me. And blame dd for it somehow.
So as wrong and horrible as it may sound, I didn't tell them. I felt I was doing what's best for my dd.


You took care of your DD. That was important. You did good.

My only concern is that he sounds like a danger to others. Is it too late to do anything about him, now?
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 18 2013, 8:27 am
amother wrote:
when my friends and I were about eight we sweet talked my annoying little brother, conned him into getting naked, then danced around him laughing.

some people think this is normal. deep in the back of my head it seems exceptionally cruel and abusive. I still feel really bad about it.

anon, obviously


How old was he? Do you think he remembers it? If so, perhaps you owe him an apology. I don't know.

Do people prefer to forget their humiliations or have their abusers apologize to them?
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 18 2013, 9:32 am
chani8 wrote:
Do people prefer to forget their humiliations or have their abusers apologize to them?


Apologies are tricky things. I think it depends on the relationship between the people. If they are relatives and you love them, then an apology would be well taken.

I can think of certain situations where if someone abused me and I was not in any way inclined to forgive them, and apology would make me want to kick them where it would make sure that they'd never do it again.
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