What do you think about the "Womanly Arts"?

Motek

Mon, May 16 2005, 4:27 pm

Horizons magazine had an article called, "Whatever Happened to the Womanly Arts". The author makes a case for the womanly arts of sewing and cooking, which many women don't bother with at all or much, these days.

As the author's husband put it when he saw her using the sewing machine, "Why are you wasting your time with that? Clothing isn't so expensive today. For all the time you'll be putting in, it's not worth it!"

She was devastated (let's not get into whether the husband's remark was tactless, please). She knows that he's right, because nowadays, anything you can make at home can be manufactured in less time and often for less money, but ...

A neighbor once said to her, "Why should I bake cookies? I end up spending just as much money on the ingredients, and then there's all that time spent baking and cleaning up."

The author points out that fewer and fewer women are staying home full-time anymore, so these womanly arts drop by the wayside. She wonders whether this is bad, but then there's something about this that bothers her. She muses whether she's just nostalgic for the days when mothers did these things.

She notes that clothing made at home is unique. You won't find anybody else with the identical garment. It expresses your creativity.

And she also notes that clothing and food that are home-made are made with love which family members can see. She says that when a mother devotes herself to making special thing for her home and family, everybody feels cared for in a way that no mass-produced, store-bought item, can make people feel.

what do you think?

I hope Micki has some time to respond because I know she bakes AND sews!

deedee

Mon, May 16 2005, 4:58 pm

Quote:

I hope Micki has some time to respond because I know she bakes AND sews!

haha ur so funny!!! I was thinking as I read the article that micki would have s/t to say about it Very Happy

there is something special about making a homebaked dessert or dress, if ur in to it. other women have other ways of expressing their "womanly art".
personally the kitchen is my most unfav place to be, I make dinner cause I have to not cause I like to. I like to decorate my house with family pictures that I have made on the compt. I try to think of ways to make my house more homey, by adding items or rearangeing them. I prefere to work outside, gardening and landscaping my house.

Tefila

Mon, May 16 2005, 5:09 pm

I am saddend that it has lost it's value in todays world. Unlike yesteryear we are not telling our daughters to be involved in the world and the books and home is for the alta kactkes etc.
My goal is that I should be able to sew my daughters wedding gowns! And Grand childrens clothes!
I would like my daughter besides learning music, to be able to sew cook and bake etc. I would push for4 home economics in our schools!
Just as for my sons I would like them to do well in their learning and helping around the house is important but secondary so too for a women children and home skills are first, and then picking up a sefer is second.

We are masculizing our girls why? Feminizim to such an extreme, maybe perhaps that is why our girls are not marrying off earlier and are more fussy. B/c who wants to be tied down unless one has to and is 10000 and 1 percent sure? Confused

Sunshine

Mon, May 16 2005, 6:05 pm

What about those that are really not talented in an area? Like for example I can't sew for the life of me. Even when I put a button on that poped off it never looks correct. I would never dream of sewing up a hem that riped and forget about making clothing. It would be a chilllul Hashem to wear any clothing I would attempt to make. On the other hand I do enjoy cooking and baking. I think the food comes out tasting better(except for a few things that don't taste as good as the pros) is cleaner and is healthier. Also years ago when they used to sew and bake and all that stuff they had much less to do in a day. They didn't have to do h/w with kids and they only bathed for Shabbos. All the girls were home to help with the cleaning and taking care of the little ones. The ladies didn't need to teach in the schools so the kids would have a teacher. They didn't run summer camps and have community events and Shabbosim with many guest to plan for. It is a different world now and I think the job of women has changed so we can help ppl in addition to our families and don't have a whole day to devote towards that. We are helping to get the world ready for Moshiach.

Tefila

Mon, May 16 2005, 6:36 pm

Quote:

We are helping to get the world ready for Moshiach.

Yes sunshine we are Wink

but wouldn't it be beautiful to learn how to sew so we could be the ones to contribute nice materials to the Beis Hamikdosh or make the begadim 4 the Kohanim Gedolim etc etc.
Maybe if you would've been given a lesson or two in sewing you would be able to do atleast basics in that area or more.
I am not saying it should take all day and with the machines today nonethng takes all day like it used to.
But atleast not throw it away b/c it's old fashioned you know people can sew for chesed projects for sick children etc. So yes I wish these womenly arts would come back and not only from individual parents but be implemented into our girls, schools curriculum Exclamation

And you are doing a phenomenal job w/h kiruv but who knows maybe we can be taught to do it another way like having a ladys sewing club and dance lessons or cooking lessons whilst introducing and learning about Kashrus we can be implementing kiruv and shiurim that way. Why does it have to be the mens way. Tongue Out

I am talking to myself as much as I'm talking to you Smile

Motek

Mon, May 16 2005, 6:55 pm

Sunshine wrote:

It would be a chilllul Hashem to wear any clothing I would attempt to make.

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I think the food comes out tasting better(except for a few things that don't taste as good as the pros) is cleaner and is healthier.

I agree.

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Also years ago when they used to sew and bake and all that stuff they had much less to do in a day. They didn't have to do h/w with kids and they only bathed for Shabbos. All the girls were home to help with the cleaning and taking care of the little ones.

uh, what century are you talking about?

I didn't think the author was comparing life to the 1800's in Europe, but to let's say the 50's-70's in America!

My grandmother made me ponchos with pom-poms and fringes, as well as terrific chocolate cake. And in the "Sunday program" at school we had crocheting, and I remember knitting and crocheting.

and regarding long ago and "less to do in a day" - ?!

cleaning and kashering their own chicken and meat?
no modern fridge and freezer to store things, so you had to make everything fresh all the time
no electric gadgets for cooking and cleaning

even regarding shlichus, I've read many descriptions of shluchos who prepare the food for the Shabbos and Yom Tov meals. Guess it depends where and who, but sounds like many don't buy it ready-made

Rivka

Mon, May 16 2005, 7:50 pm

Nothing wrong with people knitting and making their own stuff.
Home baked cake is deffinately more yummy than bought. Same with biscuits. Plus you get to choose what is in it. Which means no preservative and you put as much sugar as you want and you can use oil and not marge.
A lot of pluses. As for the sewing...it is more tailored to have something sewn just for you. People are always going to dress makers to get stuff made, but how often do they wear them?
Knitted stuff is cute when it's blankets coz those can be kept for years and passed down as heirlooms. So they end up being priceless within the family.

I am no cook nor do I sew. In fact my husband sews torn stuff coz I have no clue. Or I will wait for my mum to come over and get her to sew stuff.

I did not like in school how they saw it as a girl's place to learn these things. There are loads of chefs. So cookery isn't a woman's art. Sewing, most famous designers are male. So to call it a woman's art?

As for individuality, there are loads of ways to show that.

carrot

Tue, May 17 2005, 1:02 pm

what about a woman who feels suffocated by these kind of things?

I don't think there is anything in halacha or jewish tradition that says woman have to cook and sew! (correct me please if I'm wrong.)

if we have modern machines etc. which allow us to be free from some of these chores, isn't this a wonderful thing to take advantage of? do you think we should go back to the days when we also had to raise and kasher our chickens, and wash clothes by hand, etc.?

if the goal is to make our children feel nurtured and loved, there are many ways to do that. I can read to my kids and spend time with them, or anything else that I enjoy doing. if I would feel obligated to cook and sew, my children would not feel loved. they would feel resentment radiating out of me.

also, freilich, regarding the home being the women's responsibility while the men must learn etc., I have to say that I think it is disgusting when I see the sons of the family sitting like kings being served by their sisters and mother slaving away in the kitchen. it is not even as if these boys are taking a brief breather from the hard work of torah study... usually they are no more occupied in their studies than the girls are. sometimes less.

of course, if anybody enjoys cooking and sewing, go ahead. if you like it then it must be good for your family. but I don't think it's something that must be pushed on others, for example teaching it in the schools. when my school tried to offer some of those courses, I found it insulting and demeaning.

ps I wouldn't be surprised if many of the women we look up to in previous generations for their great skill in cooking/sewing, would deep down rather have been doing something else but this was the only option open for them to express themselves. plus they had no choice, or their family would be hungry and naked.

1stimer

Tue, May 17 2005, 4:10 pm

excellent post carrot. I agree with you.

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I have to say that I think it is disgusting when I see the sons of the family sitting like kings being served by their sisters and mother slaving away in the kitchen

Absolutely, all it is doing is enforcing a person's natural laziness. I heard from Rav Reuven Leuchter (he is a talmid muvhak of Rav Wolbe ztl) that bein hazemanim is time for a different type of growth. It is not just zman in a different location. It is time for boys/men to help out at home. To help out with the kids. He tells a story of his neighbour, who was sitting and learning for yrs and wld bring his kids over to him or his wife to change their dirty diapers!!! That is what we are bringing up when we don't encourage our men to help out at home.

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f the goal is to make our children feel nurtured and loved, there are many ways to do that

yes and we can make them feel very nurtured and loved by buying them a little treat, writing them a note. Personally, I would prefer to buy a cake for shabbos and come to shabbos relaxed than bake my own and get nervous and tense and take it out on every1 within a 10 mile radius. Not that I am suggesting that e1 who bakes and sews gets nervous, just bear it in mind b4 we start encouraging e1 to bake and sew

Rivka

Tue, May 17 2005, 4:40 pm

Have to agree with all this. The reason it is less likely for women to cook and sew and hand wash everything is because we have machines.
Which are like maids. The rich women in those days when hand labour was real labour had maids do everything for them. They didn't sew (maybe a little picture) and they didn't cook or wash clothes. So we should be thankful we have machines which are cheaper than maids (yes they might break down, but at least they don't sue us) to do this kind of work.
Bakeries make nice cakes, and these are usually also better than shop bought coz they lack the preservatives too.
So this gives the women more time to enjoy their children and also to even learn a bit of torah.
Another thing it gives us time to do is say tehillim for those that are sick and to visit those that are sick too. It also gives us time to sit online and go on imamother.com.
So as for being sorry about not alot of people doing this "arts" as they call them. I am not sorry, I am sure there are those that like to sew and cook and those are people that are good at it and have a gift.

Sorry I am going on a bit. But to answer you motek. Designers also sew, they have to sew as they design their own outfits. When they get mad famous like CK and Ralph Lauren, they have people to sew their mass produced items, but they had to start somewhere.

Motek

Tue, May 17 2005, 5:55 pm

carrot wrote:

what about a woman who feels suffocated by these kind of things?

What's the question? The article wasn't demanding that all women do these activities. She brought up all the reasons why it's not necessary and maybe even worthless.

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I don't think there is anything in halacha or jewish tradition that says woman have to cook and sew!

have to? no, why? did anybody suggest that?

Quote:

if we have modern machines etc. which allow us to be free from some of these chores, isn't this a wonderful thing to take advantage of? do you think we should go back to the days when we also had to raise and kasher our chickens, and wash clothes by hand, etc.?

the modern machine the author was using was a sewing machine, and women who bake use electric mixers

are you comparing sewing your daughter a Shabbos outfit or a Purim costume, and baking a child's birthday cake to kashering chickens and hand laundry?

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if the goal is to make our children feel nurtured and loved, there are many ways to do that. I can read to my kids and spend time with them, or anything else that I enjoy doing.

I agree.

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if I would feel obligated to cook and sew, my children would not feel loved. they would feel resentment radiating out of me.

Fortunately, nobody is obligating you.

re boys helping out - I don't quite see the connection as that is about chinuch and middos and some other things

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of course, if anybody enjoys cooking and sewing, go ahead.

sounds grim Confused

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but I don't think it's something that must be pushed on others, for example teaching it in the schools. when my school tried to offer some of those courses, I found it insulting and demeaning.

oh my!
Please explain this. If someone can't stand math or science or foreign languages, and has to take it in school anyway, would you also say, "I don't think it's something that must be pushed on others."

Should all subjects be electives? Why refer to the OFFERING of these sort of courses as insulting and demeaning? Isn't that DENIGRATING of those women who enjoy and take pride in these courses? Doesn't it make them sound like nit-wits who waste time on silly, no-brainer activities when they can just as well buy the things they make?

Quote:

ps I wouldn't be surprised if many of the women we look up to in previous generations for their great skill in cooking/sewing, would deep down rather have been doing something else but this was the only option open for them to express themselves. plus they had no choice, or their family would be hungry and naked.

since those women cannot possibly tell us what they really felt, what point is there in projecting our own feelings on to them?

gryp

Tue, May 17 2005, 10:15 pm

Quote:

Please explain this. If someone can't stand math or science or foreign languages, and has to take it in school anyway, would you also say, "I don't think it's something that must be pushed on others."
Should all subjects be electives? Why refer to the OFFERING of these sort of courses as insulting and demeaning? Isn't that DENIGRATING of those women who enjoy and take pride in these courses? Doesn't it make them sound like nit-wits who waste time on silly, no-brainer activities when they can just as well buy the things they make?

oh boy do I WISH I could have skipped math and science once I got to high school!!! I wish they would have taught me sewing, knitting, crocheting, baking and cooking, house cleaning tips, communication skills, parenting,....ANYTHING useful, but not Math and Science!

what on earth did I gain from Geometery, Trig, and Calculus, Chemistry, and Physics? perhaps I learned that I had to stay in my seat when im told too... Confused

I can go on and on about the dumb projects, reports, essays, that were forced on us...
sorry im groaning.

anyone else out there in a similar boat?

micki

Tue, May 17 2005, 10:23 pm

interesting subject. now that my baby is sleeping and I can type with 2 hands- (much faster) then I can reply.
one thing jumps out at me. why, if you cook and bake and sew does it mean that you are not spending time with your kids? why is it better to do something else? why did it become a burden? I wish more people would see how pleasurable it is to do such things in your own home.
as was already mentioned, I love love baking and sewing. it is a pleasure that I look foward to. my children see this and demand to learn and help too. when they see me start to do one or the other they all need to help me! and the time we spend together, letting the kids pour and measure it teaches them math- science so much! and they are creating something as well. when I make a dress they all come with scissors and tape and make their own creations.
these skills were passed down from generation to generation. if we don't continue it, it will soon becoem a lost art. when I make a cake, it takes less time to make it and pop into the oven than to go to a bakery and get it. there is no reason why it should cause stress and frustration, unless you were not taught by your mother to love it and how to do it right.

when I make a dress, it takes me less time to sew it than it would to drive to NY to buy it. and its a LOT cheaper too! I like to think my kids feel proud that I make them things. sewing is a lost art- its a shame because it is something that was taught so many years ago and was obviously lost in these generations.

I'd like to see these things taught in schools, mostly to start a new generation who will know how to do it and then pass it to their kids. as for my kids yes they will learn it at home- my boys will too!
especially since they see their father bake and cook.

carrot

Wed, May 18 2005, 1:09 pm

Quote:

but I don't think it's something that must be pushed on others, for example teaching it in the schools. when my school tried to offer some of those courses, I found it insulting and demeaning.

OK. Let me clarify. It was not the offering of the courses per se that I resented, but the attitude with which they were offered, which was that
a) since you are girls, you don't need academics, this is your real education, how we wish we could knock everything else off the curriculum and focus just on this.
b) the assumption that we would be delighted to rest our brains from the hard tedious labor of learning, and do something more natural to us like cutting up vegetables. as if all girls hate book learning but gravitate naturally to the kitchen.

is my post denigrating to women who do like the domestic arts? I'm sorry if it came out that way. the truth is I highly respect skill in any area. I take particular pleasure in watching people do things that they are good at, be it carpentry, teaching, customer relations, or, yes, "balabusta" skills.

on the other hand, I must admit that I DO look down on women who just do these women-style things because they think they can't do anything else, or they never thought of doing something else. but this is very different than someone like micki who enjoys and excels at what she does. kol hakavod to all the women who CHOOSE the "womanly arts."

I just think it's wrong to expect someone to do something, or rather to enjoy a particular field of endeavor, due to an external circumstance. in this case, being a woman. don't misunderstand me! I don't think being a woman is just and external thing! but I do think that I am a person first and a woman second.

and, in any case, who says this is how a woman expresses herself?

(perhaps I am extreme this way. I feel the same way when people expect me to have certain passions and iterests because I am lubavitch. sorry, I just happen not to have those particular passions. please look elsewhere for your stereotype.)

regarding the rest of your points, motek, I assume they were rhetorical?

carrot

Wed, May 18 2005, 1:26 pm

Quote:

I can go on and on about the dumb projects, reports, essays, that were forced on us...

I agree with you. school is mostly useless except for social purposes.
(even that, I'm not sure is good. the whole "youth culture" we have now only started when attendance in high school became wide-spread. I don't know how useful it is to have such a strong seperate culture of teenagers, plus, once we get out of school, some of us are left at loose ends without a clearly defined social group....)

anyway to get back to what I was saying pre-tangent, I agree that school is not very useful. most of what you learn does not get applied. but then, if the schools offered the courses that you suggest, I'm not sure how useful that would be either. people tend, in general, to value learning less when it is forced upon them, when they have not yet realized the need for it themselves (eg parenting, house-cleaning.) and what about the people who DO enjoy, and would manage to find away to put their book learning to use, but who would not benefit from the other courses.

my opinion is that schools as they are should be abolished. the whole compulsory education thing, in my opinion, is a big mistake. students, or their parents, should be the ones to choose how to best spend the childhood / teenage years. too many students languish in schools where they gain nothing but a bad attitude. or maybe a really fun time, but that's it.

each stage of life is so valuable, are schools the best way to spend the years of youth?

ps. thinking this over... the courses you mention, math and science, are really hard to apply, especially once you get to higher grades. but is there a purpose to learning, even if it is not practical? like just "being an educated person"? not sure about this. maybe it depends on the individual? or, maybe there is a value in being an "educated society?"