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What do you think about the "Womanly Arts"?
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 14 2005, 10:34 am
Rivka wrote:
Designers also sew, they have to sew as they design their own outfits. When they get mad famous like CK and Ralph Lauren, they have people to sew their mass produced items, but they had to start somewhere.


Right you are. Ever notice that everything is "women's work" till it becomes a big moneymaker? then it becomes men's work. Sewing is women's work, but most of the big-name coutouriers were men. Cooking is women's work, but most of the big-name chefs are men. Taking care of the sick is women's work, but most of the big-name doctors are men.
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 14 2005, 10:41 am
shanie5 wrote:
as I was reading this thread, my dh came to me with his suit pants which he needs now! one of the belt loops had come free. so I took a couple minutes to stitch it in place. I'll do a better job later when he's not in a rush. what does one do if they cant do that much?



They take it to a tailor and pay him to do a job that they should be able to do themselves. You're not talking "womanly art" here; you're talking basic survival skills that everyone, male or female, should be taught same as they are taught to tie their shoelaces and brush their teeth. By the same token, everyone should also be taught basic home and auto maintenance: why should you have to call in a plumber every time a faucet leaks when you could fix it in about 10 minutes if you knew what to do?
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 14 2005, 10:51 am
1stimer wrote:
I'm good at fixing things, anything that breaks gets left for me and after fiddling with it for a while I can usually fix it. Is that a 'womanly' art?


Good for you, 1stimer! Can you teach me?
I would love to see more women go into non-traditional fields like plumbing and appliance repair. Always a problem with yichud when the wash machine guy or the electrician comes by. I'd be much happier to have a woman in my house to do the work. (I'd be happier still to know how to do it myself, but some things are better left to the pros.)

Anyone looking to start a business, I'll bet you could do real well in some sort of repair business specializing in frum or women-only households. What little old widow wouldn't prefer to have a nice lady come by to fix her sink than some man she doesn't know?
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 15 2005, 4:34 pm
if your husband is in town, there is no yichud problem

women in appliance care, plumbing and the like, hmmm, what would they wear? (the men who come are in overalls and work shoes)

and what do you posters think - would you have as much confidence in a female plumber or washing machine repairman as you would a male?

when it comes to doctors, many women prefer male doctors
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 15 2005, 4:58 pm
Quote:
and what do you posters think - would you have as much confidence in a female plumber or washing machine repairman as you would a male?

Welll when you put it that way hmmmm maybe not. Tongue Out But they could come in housecoats aka shmattes u know Twisted Evil
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 15 2005, 5:09 pm
Motek wrote:
women in appliance care, plumbing and the like, hmmm, what would they wear? (the men who come are in overalls and work shoes)


denim skirt and shirt and work shoes( available in wmen's styles and sizes but the selection is not nearly as great as for men's.) leggings under the skirt if necessary.

Motek wrote:
would you have as much confidence in a female plumber or washing machine repairman as you would a male?


absolutely. why not? A woman might even be more likely to clean up after and less likely to throw her tool box on my polished table or on the bedspread. 1stimer, what do you say?

Motek wrote:
when it comes to doctors, many women prefer male doctors


and many women prefer female doctors.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 15 2005, 5:19 pm
and on her head? a snood? sheitel? workman's cap on sheitel? Wink

the male workers who have come to me did not wear gloves (as I recall)

would your female worker wear gloves to protect her soft skin and lovely nails?

do you really think women should consider all typically male jobs such as a construction worker, telephone repair person, etc.? Does anybody here think there is something unappealing about women being mechanics and electricians? Unappealing to her husband, perhaps. Unappealing for herself since the nature of these jobs is unfeminine?

Chen - what do you think of the avodas perach that the Egyptians made the Jews do, switching male and female jobs? Do you think that doesn't apply today?
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 15 2005, 5:56 pm
Motek wrote:
and on her head? a snood? sheitel? workman's cap on sheitel? Wink


whatever she wants if she's married. what do you wear when you wash windows?

Motek wrote:
the male workers who have come to me did not wear gloves (as I recall)
your point being? the men I know do not wear gloves while washing dishes, either. I always do. so what?

Motek wrote:
would your female worker wear gloves to protect her soft skin and lovely nails?
certainly if she wanted them to stay lovely. Exactly as I hope you would if you were following the womanly art of working in your garden, digging in the soil, pulling weeds, dethorning the roses...or washing your windows, scrubbing your kitchen floor, cleaning your oven for pesach...

Motek wrote:
do you really think women should consider all typically male jobs such as a construction worker, telephone repair person, etc.?


If that's what floats their boat, why not? You may not know a ball-peen hammer from a ballpoint pen, and that's fine, but if you do, and you like it, go for it!

it may interest you to know that 100 years ago, medicine, bookkeeping and typing (yes, typing! ) were considered male occupations. there are very few occupations (other than male model or gigolo, you should excuse the expression) for which it is truly necessary to be male . Some, but not many.

Motek wrote:
Does anybody here think there is something unappealing about women being mechanics and electricians? Unappealing to her husband, perhaps. Unappealing for herself since the nature of these jobs is unfeminine?


and being a home-health care aide changing bedpans and diapering bedridden sick people is a real glamour job, right? (NOT denigrating the job--it's a real chessed and I have great respect and admiration for people who are willing to do it, but face it, "appealing' it ain't!) why is pulling a wire out of a wall less appealing than pulling a tendon out of a chicken leg?

where is our civil engineer when I need her? oh, yes, pickle lady. from an earlier thread:
PickleLady wrote:


He said on our third date I looked like I just crawled out of a sewer. Well that was true. I did spend the day on site supervising the construction of a sewer.

Considering that he married her, she couldn't have been that unappealing.


Motek wrote:
what do you think of the avodas perach that the Egyptians made the Jews do, switching male and female jobs? Do you think that doesn't apply today?


I think that what is considered 'women's work' and "men's work" is culturally determined, and it is the humiliation of doing the opposite one that is hard for people to bear.

My friend Shani is 5"11, works out with weights, moves all her furniture by herself and builds her own sukkah. don't ask her to thread a needle, though. (she's also stunning, makes great chocolate chip cookies and is getting married soon.)

My grandfather was about 5'2' on a good day, weighed maybe 110 lbs. wringing wet, and was a tailor. in fact, nearly evry jewish man in the shtetl from which he came was a tailor.( women's work?) for him to be a hodcarrier would have been avodat parech.


Last edited by chen on Tue, Nov 15 2005, 6:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 15 2005, 6:38 pm
Motek wrote:
if your husband is in town, there is no yichud problem


and if he's out of town or you have NO husband?
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 15 2005, 9:47 pm
aha, so her advertising would say something like:

"Are you single? Or is your husband out-of-town? Want to avoid shailos of yichud? Call Pnina the Plumber/Elka the Electrician and feel comfortable with a female worker in your home!"

chen - I don't have a problem with a woman who wants to work in a typical male job as an electrician, plumber, house painter, sewer cleaner if she can do so in a tznius way. That is, if this is really where her talent lies and is something she loves to do. I would be bothered by a woman who chooses these fields simply because she wants to assert herself and working as a plumber actualizes her feminist ideals.
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 15 2005, 11:30 pm
Motek wrote:
aha, so her advertising would say something like:

"Are you single? Or is your husband out-of-town? Want to avoid shailos of yichud? Call Pnina the Plumber/Elka the Electrician and feel comfortable with a female worker in your home!"


sounds good to me. they could call it pnina's pampered plumbing service, raizy's really reasonable repairs, wanda the wash-machine wizard, and hindy the heimishe housepainter. why not?


Motek wrote:
I don't have a problem with a woman who wants to work in a typical male job as an electrician, plumber, house painter, sewer cleaner
forgive me, but from the sarcastic tenor of your previous posts, I think you do. if I am misreading your tone, I apologize.

Motek wrote:
if this is really where her talent lies and is something she loves to do.I would be bothered by a woman who chooses these fields simply because she wants to assert herself
I have no argument with that. as I said earlier,

chen wrote:
If that's what floats their boat, why not? You may not know a ball-peen hammer from a ballpoint pen, and that's fine, but if you do, and you like it, go for it!


I am not suggesting that all women go out and become construction workers, any more than I suggest that all men go out and become construction workers. I am suggesting that there is a place in the world for those women who want to, and I personally would welcome them with open arms--and checkbook.
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roza




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 15 2005, 11:35 pm
1stimer wrote:
I'm good at fixing things, anything that breaks gets left for me and after fiddling with it for a while I can usually fix it. Is that a 'womanly' art?


another 'handyman' here Salut

and I fix computers in our house
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 15 2005, 11:45 pm
roza wrote:
1stimer wrote:
I'm good at fixing things, anything that breaks gets left for me and after fiddling with it for a while I can usually fix it. Is that a 'womanly' art?


another 'handyman' here Salut

and I fix computers in our house


roza, 1stimer, are you available sundays? I have several items that have needed repair for months that dh is not ever going to get around to...
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roza




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 15 2005, 11:52 pm
Wow, I agree with you chen. (now that I read till the end of the thread).
btw, there are frum women drivers already.

About women preferring male doctors:

There are studies about women being more competitive and less nurturing around/with women then with men. So some women feel uncomfortable with women doctors. There are personal feelings involved, even if the woman is a good doctor.
But it's not the same as dealing with woman electrician who is not threating you directly but just dealing with electricity in your house and a well trained woman can do as great as a man.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 17 2005, 11:49 am
chen wrote:
forgive me, but from the sarcastic tenor of your previous posts, I think you do. if I am misreading your tone, I apologize.


To clarify - I think that the number of frum women who would feel a strong interest and have the ability to pursue these jobs is minimal. You might say that's cultural. Perhaps, but nevertheless it's the case. I personally have not come across any women that I can think of that felt a strong desire to spend a lot of time fixing machines. I have met women/girls who really want to paint, play music, cook, and sew.

My grandmother was handy, could wire lamps etc. Was this something she wanted to pursue as a job? Not at all. It was something she did when the need arose.

Oh, I recall a woman who was a plumber. She was a baalas teshuva and feminist thinking definitely played a role here.

But the original topic was not about paying jobs, but about homemaking skills! This is not another career- workingwoman thread but what women think about being a balabusta in her home.

A few posters have said that children would rather have a happy mother than a homemade cookie, that they would prefer time spent playing with their mother over homemade cupcakes, but who said it needs to be a choice?

That kind of statement is a "straw man" in which (Internet definition:)The arguer makes up a proposition never offered by her opponent (usually weaker than the true proposition) and then attacks it as if his opponent had offered that proposition. This is most common on Internet chat sites.
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1stimer




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 17 2005, 1:07 pm
motek wrote:
when it comes to doctors, many women prefer male doctors


Most people I know choose doctors based on recommendations or qualifications not on their gender.
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1stimer




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 17 2005, 1:12 pm
Quote:
would your female worker wear gloves to protect her soft skin and lovely nails?

I think that your hands need more protection when cooking (grating, cutting etc) and washing up then when doing household appliance repair.

Quote:
Does anybody here think there is something unappealing about women being mechanics and electricians? Unappealing to her husband, perhaps. Unappealing for herself since the nature of these jobs is unfeminine

Since my husband is the proverbial 'can't change a light bulb' do you think that my being handy is unappealing??? Unappealing to me? Of course not, just like people get satisfaction from a delicious meal, or a beautiful dress, I get satisfaction from fixing something broken. Most people get satisfaction from a job well done.
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1stimer




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 17 2005, 1:29 pm
Quote:
aha, so her advertising would say something like:

"Are you single? Or is your husband out-of-town? Want to avoid shailos of yichud? Call Pnina the Plumber/Elka the Electrician and feel comfortable with a female worker in your home!"


Uhh, no. My advertising (should I choose to go into a fix-it job) would be something like:

Want a professional, clean job? Call 1stimer and get it right the first time!
And if you were shocked to see a woman show up, well, isn't that a shame?
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1stimer




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 17 2005, 1:45 pm
Quote:
and I fix computers in our house


me too! Smile At one point I was going to study to be a computer technician, but the guy who was offering the course put me off it because he said that most people know how to do basic computer repairs themselves, but he was wrong.
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1stimer




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 17 2005, 1:46 pm
Quote:
1stimer, are you available sundays? I have several items that have needed repair for months that dh is not ever going to get around to...


when I fix all the things waiting around for me to fix... Wink
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