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Wave of the future - rabbinic courts annul agunah's marriage
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self-actualization




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 13 2013, 10:50 am
http://www.vosizneias.com/1413.....o-us/

This has got to be the wave of the future, along with the halachic pre-nup. Torah Judaism is taking a long time to change the status quo for agunos, but as more men have daughters and sisters that are impacted, I am betting that we will in fact see changes.
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MommyZ




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 13 2013, 11:18 am
Very interesting.
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 13 2013, 11:20 am
self-actualization wrote:
http://www.vosizneias.com/141327/2013/09/12/private-rabbinical-court-annuls-marriage-after-man-moves-to-us/

This has got to be the wave of the future, along with the halachic pre-nup. Torah Judaism is taking a long time to change the status quo for agunos, but as more men have daughters and sisters that are impacted, I am betting that we will in fact see changes.


it seems that this poor woman had a lot of special circumstances that aided her in getting this annulment. I don't see how a ruling like this helps agunos across the board. this was a very special case.
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Happy18




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 13 2013, 11:34 am
I think this case is so far away the typical stories that one hears that it will have very little impact on other cases.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 13 2013, 11:37 am
octopus wrote:
self-actualization wrote:
http://www.vosizneias.com/141327/2013/09/12/private-rabbinical-court-annuls-marriage-after-man-moves-to-us/

This has got to be the wave of the future, along with the halachic pre-nup. Torah Judaism is taking a long time to change the status quo for agunos, but as more men have daughters and sisters that are impacted, I am betting that we will in fact see changes.


it seems that this poor woman had a lot of special circumstances that aided her in getting this annulment. I don't see how a ruling like this helps agunos across the board. this was a very special case.


Yup. (1) He is a convert who has now declared himself to be Christian; (2) he left for another country 2 days after the wedding, under circumstances that suggest that he planned it before the wedding. Even then, it was decided by an independent bet din, and it isn't clear that it will be widely accepted.

Nevertheless, I am thrilled for this poor woman, and wish her nothing but happiness from now on.
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little_mage




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 13 2013, 1:49 pm
octopus wrote:
self-actualization wrote:
http://www.vosizneias.com/141327/2013/09/12/private-rabbinical-court-annuls-marriage-after-man-moves-to-us/

This has got to be the wave of the future, along with the halachic pre-nup. Torah Judaism is taking a long time to change the status quo for agunos, but as more men have daughters and sisters that are impacted, I am betting that we will in fact see changes.


it seems that this poor woman had a lot of special circumstances that aided her in getting this annulment. I don't see how a ruling like this helps agunos across the board. this was a very special case.


The thing is, that once it's done once, even if the circumstances are unique and not likely to be repeated, as is the case here, it makes it seem more acceptable. It puts it out there as an option that could eventually start sneaking into the mainstream. And it's good for the woman regardless of if it sets a precedent.
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naturemom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 13 2013, 4:09 pm
Not such a great example after all since the woman did recieve her get after the rabbis paid him for it.
The only question is whether she is a divorced single or just single.
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Rubber Ducky




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 13 2013, 4:47 pm
Wow -- I didn't know a Jewish marriage could be annulled -- although if the chosson wasn't considered Jewish there really was no marriage in the first place. Let's see whether this leads to any other annulments.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 14 2013, 2:39 pm
naturemom wrote:
Not such a great example after all since the woman did recieve her get after the rabbis paid him for it.
The only question is whether she is a divorced single or just single.
At the end of the article it said divorced single (I read this article over shabbat/yom kippur in the Jerusalem Post so it is making its rounds)
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 14 2013, 3:12 pm
This case is too out of the mainstream to have any impact on other cases, but I'm glad this woman's problem is solved.

Rubber Ducky, annulments do exist. They are relatively rare and generally used when the husband will not give a get. I'm not an expert but there is a concept of "mekach taut", that a situation exists that a woman did not know about before the marriage and would not have agreed to the marriage had she known.
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theoneandonly




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 14 2013, 3:38 pm
Rubber Ducky wrote:
Wow -- I didn't know a Jewish marriage could be annulled -- although if the chosson wasn't considered Jewish there really was no marriage in the first place. Let's see whether this leads to any other annulments.

I know of a case where a woman's marriage was annulled and she had a few choshuve chareidi Rabbis backing her; they even said she could marry a Kohen.
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 14 2013, 4:29 pm
It's what Rabbi Rackman's beisdin used as its basis, and it is halochically sound however it was rejected by all institutions and establishments other than his and therefore they refused to also remarry such a woman if she wanted to marry someone else. Therefore while Rav Rackman was alive he also performed marriages for the women that he had annulled, however the Israeli government won't recognize any of it including this beisdin that the article was about.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 14 2013, 8:10 pm
theoneandonly wrote:
Rubber Ducky wrote:
Wow -- I didn't know a Jewish marriage could be annulled -- although if the chosson wasn't considered Jewish there really was no marriage in the first place. Let's see whether this leads to any other annulments.

I know of a case where a woman's marriage was annulled and she had a few choshuve chareidi Rabbis backing her; they even said she could marry a Kohen.


in that case the reason for the annulment is likely that the marriage was never consummated, in which case it was not completed.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 14 2013, 8:59 pm
self-actualization wrote:
http://www.vosizneias.com/141327/2013/09/12/private-rabbinical-court-annuls-marriage-after-man-moves-to-us/

This has got to be the wave of the future, along with the halachic pre-nup. Torah Judaism is taking a long time to change the status quo for agunos, but as more men have daughters and sisters that are impacted, I am betting that we will in fact see changes.


I pulled up a Halachic pre-nup. It is just a form the couples agree to go to a BD and that the BD agreement will be enforceable in civil court. I didn't see anything about a get.

There needs to be language in a Pre-nup the man will not withhold a get ever under any circumstance.
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little_mage




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 14 2013, 9:10 pm
Squishy wrote:
self-actualization wrote:
http://www.vosizneias.com/141327/2013/09/12/private-rabbinical-court-annuls-marriage-after-man-moves-to-us/

This has got to be the wave of the future, along with the halachic pre-nup. Torah Judaism is taking a long time to change the status quo for agunos, but as more men have daughters and sisters that are impacted, I am betting that we will in fact see changes.


I pulled up a Halachic pre-nup. It is just a form the couples agree to go to a BD and that the BD agreement will be enforceable in civil court. I didn't see anything about a get.

There needs to be language in a Pre-nup the man will not withhold a get ever under any circumstance.


My husband and I signed the Halachic prenup. It stipulates that should we separate, he will be fined an amount (I want to say $150) per day that he does not give the get.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 14 2013, 9:29 pm
little_mage wrote:
Squishy wrote:
self-actualization wrote:
http://www.vosizneias.com/141327/2013/09/12/private-rabbinical-court-annuls-marriage-after-man-moves-to-us/

This has got to be the wave of the future, along with the halachic pre-nup. Torah Judaism is taking a long time to change the status quo for agunos, but as more men have daughters and sisters that are impacted, I am betting that we will in fact see changes.


I pulled up a Halachic pre-nup. It is just a form the couples agree to go to a BD and that the BD agreement will be enforceable in civil court. I didn't see anything about a get.

There needs to be language in a Pre-nup the man will not withhold a get ever under any circumstance.


My husband and I signed the Halachic prenup. It stipulates that should we separate, he will be fined an amount (I want to say $150) per day that he does not give the get.


It could be a different agreement than the one I saw. I wouldn't marry my husband unless he agreed to never withhold the get. Anyway I am not sure how enforceable these agreements are.
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mirror




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 14 2013, 10:55 pm
Squishy wrote:
little_mage wrote:

My husband and I signed the Halachic prenup. It stipulates that should we separate, he will be fined an amount (I want to say $150) per day that he does not give the get.


It could be a different agreement than the one I saw. I wouldn't marry my husband unless he agreed to never withhold the get. Anyway I am not sure how enforceable these agreements are.


In American courts, the husband can be forced to pay extra alimony.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 14 2013, 11:06 pm
OPINIONATED wrote:
Squishy wrote:
little_mage wrote:

My husband and I signed the Halachic prenup. It stipulates that should we separate, he will be fined an amount (I want to say $150) per day that he does not give the get.


It could be a different agreement than the one I saw. I wouldn't marry my husband unless he agreed to never withhold the get. Anyway I am not sure how enforceable these agreements are.


In American courts, the husband can be forced to pay extra alimony.


Yes but then the get is problematical.
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Rubber Ducky




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 14 2013, 11:10 pm
Squishy wrote:
OPINIONATED wrote:
Squishy wrote:
little_mage wrote:

My husband and I signed the Halachic prenup. It stipulates that should we separate, he will be fined an amount (I want to say $150) per day that he does not give the get.


It could be a different agreement than the one I saw. I wouldn't marry my husband unless he agreed to never withhold the get. Anyway I am not sure how enforceable these agreements are.


In American courts, the husband can be forced to pay extra alimony.


Yes but then the get is problematical.

Right -- I thought that coercion invalidates a get.
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theoneandonly




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 15 2013, 3:20 am
Rubber Ducky wrote:
Squishy wrote:
OPINIONATED wrote:
Squishy wrote:
little_mage wrote:

My husband and I signed the Halachic prenup. It stipulates that should we separate, he will be fined an amount (I want to say $150) per day that he does not give the get.


It could be a different agreement than the one I saw. I wouldn't marry my husband unless he agreed to never withhold the get. Anyway I am not sure how enforceable these agreements are.


In American courts, the husband can be forced to pay extra alimony.


Yes but then the get is problematical.

Right -- I thought that coercion invalidates a get.

But the Rambam (I think) says you're allowed to beat up a man until he agrees to give a get...
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