Top Ten Things Not to Say to a Kofer

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mommydiaries

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 7:31 pm

Things not to say to a kofer

hope that hand basket is comfy!

marina

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 8:27 pm

Ora, thank you for your thoughtful post. I agree those comments are obnoxious.

Part of my post's point was not to merely write up the unkind statements people make, but to explain why a frum person's well-meaning comment may be taken poorly. Your best example of that is your fifth one, it was pretty good and true to life. I probably come across that way all the time, lol.

detroitmom

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 9:22 pm

I haven't posted a thing in two years but why not now. I am OTD. I don't think I'm better, or more intellectual etc. than anyone else. I don't begrudge people their frumkeit and most of the time people don't begrudge me my right to be frei. I have gotten quite a few nasty comments but hey, that's life. Frum women should realize one thing - people are leaving in droves. you never know who's secretly OTD and plotting their escape. The future doesn't look bright for the future of frumkeit unless the rabbis find something better to do than ban stuff.

amother

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 10:25 pm

I am posting this as Amother out of respect for Yael, those of you who can figure out who I am will immediately realize why I feel the need to do this. I am openly not frum so I really have no problem with anyone identifying me, my concern is purely one of respect. In fact, if you suspect it is me I am willing to confirm via PM.

I used to be a very regular poster here until about 2.5 years ago, when I stopped posting rather abruptly. I stopped at that time, because shortly before a very long process of questioning had led me to the point where I no longer believed in frumkiet, and I simply didn't feel comfortable with either misrepresenting myself or expressing my beliefs. My posts had always been of the intellectual variety, so staying around and just posting recipes is something I wouldn't even think of doing. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I have never posted a recipe. Don't worry, I haven't been trying to come here and secretly undermine yiddishkiet or something. Out of respect for this site I have refrained from posting and this is the first post that I have written since I stopped posting under my screen name, and I only very rarely read anything here.

The reason why I decided to post now is to say that I have gotten practically every one of the comments on Marina's list, and I can confirm that they are hurtful or counter-productive.

Before going through the list, I will provide a little background so you can see where I am coming from. I have been married to my husband, who is still VERY frum, for ten years and have three elementary-school aged kids. I am also totally and openly not frum. I keep taharas hamishpacha completely and honestly in order to stay married and not violate my moral obligation towards my husband, but keep nothing else at all.

I had been questioning my particular derech for many years, but kept trying to justify things to myself and had very chareidi beliefs. Eventually, a combination of my lingering questioning and personal circumstances prodded me to question further, until I eventually realized that I couldn't justify my beliefs. I wouldn't say my decision was based solely on intellectual considerations, however. Rather circumstances, in particular that of not fitting in well to the role expected of me, that led me to question. However, that alone never would have been enough to leave--I hate hypocrisy and never would have left if I still believed, but once I realized I didn't believe I simply couldn't stay.

Back to the list:

1. I have received a number of comments along those lines. For example, a frum friend claims that my problem was obviously due to not having read Derech Hashem. Seriously? Those of you who have figured out who I am would realize how blatantly absurd that comment is, given that my level of learning and knowledge of sources was far above average.

2. I get that too. "I'm sure you'll come back when your kids get older". Really? This isn't a phase, but rather a very risky step I took given my family situation. I didn't take it lightly, and such comments make light of my decision

3. In my case there were negative experiences, but it is offensive when people claim that means that my intellectual reasoning is totally invalid. Everyone is influenced by their experiences, but the same way that the decision of someone to become frum doesn't totally lack merit if they ever had a positive experience with the frum community, the decision to become secular doesn't totally lack merit if they ever had a negative experience with the frum community. I have had plenty of positive frum experiences and negative secular experiences too. I do make every effort to separate my personal biases from my decision making, but of course I'm not perfect.

4. The one I get the most regarding this is "You went OTD because you went to college". No, the causality here is reversed. While I was still frum when I started college, I was already questioning my beliefs which was the reason I was willing to go in the first place. I was far too frum to go to college when I was younger, and was only willing to start after I began questioning the tenants of my derech, which ultimately led to further questioning. This is especially true given that my majors (both of them) were not related to anything that any frum person would object to, other than the very fact that they were secular. I wasn't studying anything kefira'dik.

5. I have gotten that too, and find it quite offensive given the many. many hours of agony and deliberation that went into my decision. Deciding to go OTD was not an easy decision and has made my life harder rather than easier, and also involved taking an incredible risk. Why would I choose to do something that makes my life harder in order to make my life easier?

6. I have gotten that too, and if you say that you just sound stupid. I certainly find my life to be fulfilling, and know many people of other religions and of no religion who find fulfillment and certainly do not lead empty lives.

7. That one I haven't gotten, probably due to being married to someone frum, but my honest answer is that I really don't care. Honestly. I still like going to some Jewish cultural events, because it is part of my identity, but it wouldn't bother me at all if my kids feel differently.

8. I find it really offensive for the exact reasons that Marina said. A close relative of mine once told me that he was saying a meshebeyrach for me at shul during davening. Can you imagine how offensive that is? Thinking differently from you isn't an illness.

9. Usually when people do that I lose respect for them since they reveal their ignorance. OTOH, I have had intelligent debates on those topics with frum people and I am totally willing to have those. Just make sure you know what you are talking about or it will make me lose respect for you.

10. I have often gotten the "Why doesn't your husband divorce you" comment and whether it bothers me or not depends on the context. If it is simply someone surprised with how we can put up with each other, it doesn't bother me since honestly I don't know how either of us avoid going insane either. However, if it is said in the tone of "How could your husband possibly stay with someone as bad of you?", it feels quite different

amother

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 10:52 pm

For former BTs, going off the derech often earns a comment that is very disheartening to hear in conversation: "Well, she was obviously never really frum in the first place." So many BTs sacrificed so much to become orthodox--family relationships that were strained, friendships lost, educational and career opportunities pushed to the side, or lost completely. It makes me think that these BTs were never really accepted in the first place and were always second-class members of frum society.

bamamama

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 10:59 pm

amother wrote:

That's the big rub - the strained family relationships and friendships lost. When you get to a certain point in life, you realize how important family is and you will never really have the extended family a FFB person has and, no matter what people say, it makes a big difference.

sequoia

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 11:09 pm

Sheesh, glad you're okay and all. You've been missed.

BlueRose52

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 12:04 am

In my experience, all of these kinds of comments (aside from the guilt-trip remarks), while differing in their content, share the same ultimate purpose - to delegitimize the person's choice of leaving frumkeit. I don't think this is always a conscious intention, but it's a subtext that's almost always present.

As I've come to understand the issue, I've realized that many frum people see those who leave frumkeit as a threat. Not that they're scared the person will directly try to harm them (spiritually or physically), but rather that simply knowing of someone who made such a drastic change, one which challenges the pillars of their belief, can't help call into question somewhat their own life. It might raise some uncomfortable feelings; if they're happy with their life, if the religious ideas they believe in are as true as they've thought; it might make them wonder if they would ever contemplate such a move, or if they should pay more attention to some nagging questions in the back of their minds which they've long tried to stifle. The mere presence, or awareness, of a person who has rocked the boat so severely often causes some internal rocking of their own.

So when a frum person encounters an OTD individual, there's an instinctive need to protect themselves, their worldview, from the psychological repercussions of the OTD person's life choice. And so they say these things to undermine that person's choice. It's not to deliberately hurt the person (usually not), but more like a knee-jerk reaction of self-preservation. Because after all, if the person only went OTD because of abuse, then their choice has no bearing on the truth of the Torah; it's just due to their unfortunate circumstance. Or if they chose to do so because of taivos, or because they're shallow and self-indulgent, knowing those motivations are the cause helps to keep intact their belief that their own lifestyle is the right one. If it's just a phase, or if they simply haven't heard the answers that smart rabbonim are sure to have, then frumkeit is still as perfect and whole as they've always known it to be. And if the path they've chosen is full of misery and meaningless pursuits then their own life of wholesome torah based frumkeit is clearly so much better.

Obviously, this sort of reaction to cognitive dissonance isn't exclusive to frum people, but I think it's what's often at play in these encounters.

BlueRose52

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 12:10 am

And also, I think this factor is part of why OTD people find all these remarks so obnoxious and offensive. Not just for the reasons that marina gave, but because, regardless of the comment or question, they sense that underlying the remark is an attitude of disrespect and a presumption of illegitimacy in the choices they've made.

fromthedepths

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 12:12 am

bamamama wrote:

fromthedepths wrote:

I think a lot depends on the relationship. I once had a very honest and open conversation with someone who seemed on his way to becoming a BT and then left. I asked him straight out why. I don't think he was offended. He is a close friend of dh, he used to spend lots of time in our house, and he knew that I was asking only because I cared. We're still friends, and he's sincerely happy to see me, so I don't think I pushed him away.

As far as #3, again, depends on the relationship. If somebody close to me went OTD, I would definitely ask, gently and sincerely, if anything happened and if there is anything I could help with. I would definitely be concerned, and at least try to see if the person feels hurt or is in pain. Because IME, in most cases there is some kind of trauma and hurt. And I would want to be there for them, no matter how they decide to live their lives.

I don't think it's necessary at all to pretend like the matter doesn't exist. I think most people welcome honest discussions about their beliefs. Discussing is completely different from the pithy pronouncements Marina listed above.

I wonder why I got a hug for the above quoted post...

Anyway, I think people confuse honest dialogue with being PC. Many people do pretend the matter doesn't exist. I don't believe in that. I am truly and genuinely pained when I see people going OTD. And I let them know that. I'm not PC. I believe they're missing out on the most important thing in life, and I have no problem sharing this belief with them.

However, I do not think of them or speak to them in a condescending way. And I think this is the key, and the common theme in Marina's 10 things. It is not up to us, or any human being, to evaluate another person's avodas Hashem. For all I know, if I was given the same life circumstances as these people I would have also been OTD. Rav Tzadok Hacohen wrote that sometimes we're given tests we cannot possibly withstand.

As a frum Jew, I believe my task, and my test, is to try to put myself in another person's shoes, listen, empathize, and be there for them. We can also let them know that the way back is always open to them. Not because I need them to be frum in order to be friends - not at all, but because I truly believe that they have much to gain if they come back.

I hope I haven't offended anyone with this post. I've spent too much time in the kitchen to think clearly Smile

, but I felt I had to respond. This matter is close to my heart. Not sure why. I think it's a soul call. But I have spent some time speaking to disillusioned Jews.

fromthedepths

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 12:21 am

detroitmom wrote:

People are also joining in droves. And having lots of kids, KA"H. The frum community has, B"H, grown tremendously over the last several decades. I see a much brighter future. I see so much learning and personal growth going on. I see many many inspired, committed Jews who go through life with the awareness that they're constantly in Hashem's presence. And it's contagious.

mirror

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 12:22 am

amother wrote:

The reason why I decided to post now is to say that I have gotten practically every one of the comments on Marina's list, and I can confirm that they are hurtful or counter-productive.

Before going through the list, I will provide a little background so you can see where I am coming from. I have been married to my husband, who is still VERY frum, for ten years and have three elementary-school aged kids. I am also totally and openly not frum. I keep taharas hamishpacha completely and honestly in order to stay married and not violate my moral obligation towards my husband, but keep nothing else at all.

That is very impressive that you keep Taharas Hamishpacha for the sake of your husband. I am sure that is not easy for you. Likewise, I am sure you celebrate Yom Tov with him for his sake, as well as Shabbos.

Therefore, you may be keeping much more than you imply.

bamamama

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 12:25 am

OPINIONATED wrote:

amother wrote:

Are you really arguing with her about whether or not she's *actually* OTD?

BlueRose52

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 12:30 am

fromthedepths wrote:

...I think people confuse honest dialogue with being PC. Many people do pretend the matter doesn't exist. I don't believe in that. I am truly and genuinely pained when I see people going OTD. And I let them know that. I'm not PC. I believe they're missing out on the most important thing in life, and I have no problem sharing this belief with them.

However, I do not think of them or speak to them in a condescending way. And I think this is the key, and the common theme in Marina's 10 things. It is not up to us, or any human being, to evaluate another person's avodas Hashem. For all I know, if I was given the same life circumstances as these people I would have also been OTD. Rav Tzadok Hacohen wrote that sometimes we're given tests we cannot possibly withstand.

As a frum Jew, I believe my task, and my test, is to try to put myself in another person's shoes, listen, empathize, and be there for them. We can also let them know that the way back is always open to them. Not because I need them to be frum in order to be friends - not at all, but because I truly believe that they have much to gain if they come back.

It's clear that you're really sincere in your love and concern for your fellow Jew. However, I have to say, even though you have the good sense not to speak condescendingly to people, your attitude still seems incredibly condescending to me. It reminds me of a recording someone recently posted online of a conversation between an OTD person and a guy trying to be mekarev him, and while the kiruv guy spoke to him in a very kind and sweet and well-meaning manner, and like you, was very much pained by his friend's choice to leave frumkeit, the condescension that came from him was just unmistakable.

amother

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 12:30 am

OPINIONATED wrote:

amother wrote:

I don't keep shabbos or yom tov. I am not mechallel shabbos in front of the kids/husband, but I am mechallel shabbos in private. I am a graduate student now and I go to class on Yom Tov, I just park a bit away from home. It is similar to the way that I keep the kitchen kosher, but will eat whatever I want to when I'm anywhere else. My kids know that I am not frum.

So there isn't really much else I keep. The reason why I keep taharas hamishpacha is that it directly interferes with his observance if I don't, so deceiving him regarding that would be morally wrong since it would be deceiving him into violating his beliefs. If I could somehow convince him not to care that would be great, but knowing my husband there is a better chance of just about anything happening than that.

BlueRose52

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 12:45 am

OPINIONATED wrote:

...you may be keeping much more than you imply.

Technically, even the most irreligious person in the world is keeping plenty of mitzvos. Think about it: Are they committing all the many forms of incest? Are they planting mixed crops? Are they plowing a field with an ox and a mule yoked together? Are they bearing false witness? There are countless prohibitions in the Torah that most people never violate. And they're probably also observing many of the positive commandments! Most irreligious people honor their parents, are honest people, do kindness, give charity, etc.

We're so focused on the common mitzvos and halachos that take up so much of our lives (shabbos, kashrus, tefila, TH, etc.), we forget that there are hundreds of commandments in the Torah which normal people can't help "keeping" as part of their normal life. With that perspective, no one is totally OTD. LOL

fromthedepths

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 12:52 am

BlueRose52 wrote:

fromthedepths wrote:

Are you saying that the only view that is acceptable to you is that life without Torah and mitzvos is equivalent to a Torah lifestyle? Well, I don't agree with that view, and find it rather intolerant when people don't allow room for my views and values.

bamamama

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 1:07 am

fromthedepths wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

fromthedepths wrote:

I think what she's saying is that expressing your sadness to an OTD person (about their being OTD) is condescending. I'm sorry but I have to agree even though I know you're coming from a place of love. To an OTD person, a life without Torah and mitzvot is just fine. The best thing you can say is to let them know that your friendship is not dependent upon the person's religious beliefs. Unless, of course, it is.

BlueRose52

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 1:22 am

fromthedepths wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

fromthedepths wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean by equivalent. Are they the same? Of course not. Are they of equal value? Depends on how you measure such value. Can they both provide a person with whatever it is they are seeking in life? Most definitely.

I never said that you can't have your view. Have it, embrace it, be proud of it. But it can still be condescending.

I was thinking about what you wrote, and I think it raises a valid question regarding the issue. If you have something in your life which you find wonderful, whether it be marriage, children, religion, a successful career, delicious food, a particular experience, whatever, why is it condescending to feel that those who don't have it are missing out on something wonderful? You've got something great, they don't, obviously they're missing out, aren't they?! Why is that condescending?

I'm not quite sure actually, but I think the answer might have something to do with how one views those who don't have that wonderful thing. When one thinks about them (even if it isn't explicitly articulated), "Oh, you poor thing, you're missing out! I'm so sorry for you.... won't you let me help you get some of that wonderfulness in your life?", it clearly expresses an attitude of superiority and condescension. That sort of attitude is invalidating all the good things they may have in their life, as basically not really mattering since they don't have the wonderfulness that you have.

But if your attitude is simply, "I love so much what I have! I love what it does for me. Those who don't have it might be missing out on this particular experience/feeling/lifestyle, and I'd be happy to share it with them, but their life is no less worthwhile without it.", that isn't condescending.

Just a thought.

ora_43

Wed, Sep 18 2013, 2:46 am

bamamama wrote:

To me that's setting the bar for "condescending" too low. Just about everybody has some belief or cause they'd like to see more people getting involved with, and would hate to see people leave. Vegan animal rights activists would be hurt if a fellow activist decides he doesn't care about animals after all and starts eating hamburgers. If I were living in America, and decided to vote Republican, I would have to never, ever mention that fact around certain relatives. Etc.

Judaism isn't (just) a set of personal beliefs, it's a cause. Yeah, I'm sorry that certain friends of mine decided not to be part of this cause anymore. And they think I should have fewer kids, stop eating animal flesh, etc.

As long as it all stays (almost entirely) unspoken, I think that's OK. (From what I understood, fromthedepths wasn't talking about openly saying she's unhappy about her friends' choices, she was just admitting that the unhappiness is there.)

Condescending is when people cross over to insinuating that you made your choice due to either lack of intellect or emotional damage.

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