Shabbos meal | Imamother

amother

Wed, Nov 27 2013, 9:11 am

amother wrote:

I completely and vehemently agree with the OP. not about the halacha stuff, or about her situation, maybe she was rude earlier in the meal I dont know.

no idea about that. but there is nothing nothing nothing at all wrong with getting up at any time and asking to be excused. you accuse people who would want to leave a meal of immaturity? excuse me? what about the people who are so immature and lacking in self confidence and a sense of their own self worth they feel attacked by someone asking to leave their meal after two hours of listening to them pontificate about nonsense?

you talk about derech eretz? you talk about manners? how about not getting upset by perfectly reasonable requests that cost you nothing nothing nothing at all. and if you feel it's costing you something to let your guests leave your shabbos table, I'm sorry but you got issues. really

you talk about derech eretz? you talk about manners? if you had any sort of decent manners, you would glance at the clock and notice it was two hours into the meal and politely ask "does anyone want to bentch? I know we are all having such a great time here, but maybe someone would like to go? the rest of us can all stay, or not, of course! we are happy to have you for as long as is convenient!"

please. grow up and stop thinking that just because people have issues that its rude to be normal. of course, if you are acting in a way which is offensive or there are other circumstances involved, everything is different, but come on.

if your family is having a giant yomtov meal and you don't feel comfortable asking if you can please be excused 2+ hours in something, somewhere, with someone, is very very wrong

this was me, and I am sorry to say this, but I still dont get it. seriously, people keep saying the word "rude" and "immature"

rude implies someone is being offended. for instance, it's rude to flatulate at the table. it makes people uncomfortable. it is rude to loudly and forcefully state your opinion at a meal, people might not agree with you and you are in their face. etcetera.

what exactly is rude about politely removing yourself from a shabbos table, pray tell? is your presence so divine that removing it is practically an insult to everyone there?

someone mentioned "when you have infrequent family gatherings the least you can do is sit and bear it for a few hours"

wth? sorry to use strong language but this is how a family is supposed to feel about each other? frankly I honestly don't see whats wrong after leaving 30 minutes in. frankly, what I suspect people REALLY mean is the following:

of course we all (the families) dont get along really, it's all we can do to get together and have a genuinely good time 3-4 times a year. more than that and all our issues with each other would come bubbling up and we dont want to have another shana-yehuda-yerucham affair like we did at shevy's shabbos sheva brachos haha (uncomfortable laughter). in hindsight considering it was a sunday wedding and we practically spent the whole week together we should have seen it coming. but now we only get together infrequently, so gnash your teeth privately, but publicly put on that big smile! oh and make sure you dont do anything that break the illusion! GOD NO! cant pull back the curtain on the act, so you have to pretend you love every second of it, and yes we are all in this together so deal with it! you have a headache? well guess what twinkletoes I dont want to be here either so deal with it. it wouldn't be fair if some of us got to leave the table now but others had to stay would it? it's just three hours! deal with it!

here is another subtext I am seeing:

you know how daddy likes an audience shaina! how could you just get up and abandon us all! so you weren't feeling well! well what about kibbud av! do you have any idea how upset daddy got that you didn't stay and listen to his divrei torah/political hock/random trivial observations? he was so insulted and aggravated that the meal was just so uncomfortable for everyone after. I mean my gosh! do you remember how I felt when I was nine months with duvid'l? well I still stuck it out, and it's not just cuz daddy was giving me and chaim $800 dollars a month back then, it's just cuz getting up and leaving from the shabbos table is RUDE.

here is the subtext at our nice friendly shabbos table in my house:

in case you missed it, go back and reread it.
no one is insulted if you dont want to stay at the table
no one needs you there to validate their self worth
no one is "suffering thru it" for the sake of shalom

we all like being there
we all like each other
we have a good time

and if someone doesn't feel well, or doesn't want to be there for any reason whatsoever then I would feel bad. because I like them and they add to the conversation and atmosphere (usually) but you know what? mores the pity for them, they are missing out on some good converation/hock/dessert or whatever. hopefully next time they will feel better and can join us for longer! and guess what? if later they want to come back to the table, great!

so someone please explain all this nonsense about rudeness to me. because I ain't getting it.

Ruchel

Wed, Nov 27 2013, 9:19 am

In my world you CAN leave the table, as an adult, just excuse yourself. But don't do it out of boredom unless the host is rudely self centered.
As a child, some give a "long life heter" lol that they can get up. For others they need permission every time. But again leaving may mean when they come back food is cold, or everyone finished already, or no more whatever you enjoyed. Too bad.

Barbara

Wed, Nov 27 2013, 9:42 am

Ruchel wrote:

But if they leave the table, do they grab a bentcher and bentch themselves, or insist that everyone bentch because they're leaving, even if the meal isn't over. Apparently, OP's husband did the latter.

Do they make an excuse (I have a headache; I need to stretch for a few minutes; sorry, but I promised I'd drop by to see my friend Fruma by 4 pm) or just leave, with the subtext "well, thanks for the food, I don't really feel like talking to you anymore."

There are ways to do things that make them more acceptable. Based on what she said, though, OP and her husband didn't do them that way.

amother

Wed, Nov 27 2013, 10:24 am

Barbara wrote:

Do they make an excuse (I have a headache; I need to stretch for a few minutes; sorry, but I promised I'd drop by to see my friend Fruma by 4 pm) or just leave, with the subtext "well, thanks for the food, I don't really feel like talking to you anymore."

There are ways to do things that make them more acceptable. Based on what she said, though, OP and her husband didn't do them that way.

why is there a subtext here? when someone at the table (assuming they have not been rude or did not obviously scarf down the food or intimate in any obvious way that they could not wait to get away from you) says "um, you dont mind if we leave right?" or "sorry may I be excused" or "can we bentch now so I can go?" why would you read into it? aside from it seeming like you might have issues (how can they leave! they must think im boring! or they are antisocial! oh my feelings!), there is nothing there. in addition, what a massive lack of DLKZ. since when did people have to start explaining themselves; are we so fragile and pathetic we just can't imagine anything for them? maybe she's sick. maybe not, but who knows. so you jump to "oho so she thinks im boring eh~!" I mean, really? she has to make up lies to protect your feelings? maybe she's pregnant and doesn't want anyone to know, so she has to tell you she thinks she is coming down with a bad cold so you don't get insulted?

I get that if you miss a major family event (sister/brother wedding, parent's levaya) some might demand an explanation.
they are wrong, you do NOT need to explain yourself. it none of their business why you couldn't make it, and it IS their business to be DLKZ. but ok I get it.

but to make up a subtext, and one that hurts yourself, when it's so easy and probably true to find simple explanations, reveals, I think, more about the one who is hurt than the one who left the table.

amother

Wed, Nov 27 2013, 10:32 am

I don't believe there is any set definitive rule. It depends on where you are and who you're with and being able to pick up on social cues. Laid back types and close friends and family who you're comfortable with won't get huffy and puffy if you feel the need to excuse yourself for whatever reason. But when you're in an already uncomfortable setting where people are on edge and already looking for faults, why on earth would you do anything to give them ammunition? You either want to make every effort to get along better, so you sit there until the host signals that the meal is over even if you're bored to tears, or you just don't care, in which case you do as you please. Seems like you just don't care. Which perhaps your entitled to since the family is hostile towards you. But just know that you are not doing your part to make things better.

Frumdoc

Wed, Nov 27 2013, 10:54 am

I find it really interesting how the leaving the table issue is so divisive.

For those who find it completely acceptable, would you also walk off in the middle of a conversation with someone, or would you excuse yourself politely?

If you were invited to your Rav and Rebbetzin for a shabbos meal, and it was going on for a while, with conversation about something you were not fascinated by, would you ask him if everyone could interrupt their conversation and meal to bench so you could go socialise with your friends in the park like you do every shabbos afternoon? Or would that be rude and not Kavodik to someone who you are supposed to respect.

It is very similar to those who find it rude to interrupt a conversation for call waiting, and those who don't.

A shabbos meal is a social experience with a beginning, middle and end, and the OP's actions told her hosts that she was not enjoying the social side of it, ie their company, and that they wanted to finish it right now, before everyone else was ready, irrespective of their wishes. How is that ok?

Fine, in some families, meals are more relaxed, people drop in and out and no one cares, but this is clearly not one of those families. They felt slighted that not only was their food not good enough, but neither was their company. I can understand this.

Irrelevant of the background, if you are invited somewhere and attend, walking out halfway through is like walking out of a movie, expressing your boredom with it, the difference being that here there is someone who is hurt by your actions.

ora_43

Wed, Nov 27 2013, 1:09 pm

amother wrote:

what exactly is rude about politely removing yourself from a shabbos table, pray tell? is your presence so divine that removing it is practically an insult to everyone there?

someone mentioned "when you have infrequent family gatherings the least you can do is sit and bear it for a few hours"

wth? sorry to use strong language but this is how a family is supposed to feel about each other?

Who said "sit and bear it"? Confused

No, family isn't supposed to feel that way about each other. That's the whole problem. If everyone is seeing each other for the first time in months and even then, you can't stand to spend 3-4 hours with them - problem. Maybe not your fault, but still, problem.

I don't get what's confusing about saying that someone's presence at the table matters. Is your presence divine? Obviously not (if it is, you should probably be off managing the affairs of the incomprehensibly vast universe, not posting on imamother).

But we're talking about a small family meal, not a party with 50 people. If you're the only guests, or even two of six of the guests, then yeah, it's going to make a pretty big difference to the feel of the event if you get up and walk away. And unless the host is your mother and you just gave birth or something, odds are that they invited you because they wanted your company, not because they thought you needed the food. By definition, they want you at the table.

I think all your comments about being dan l'chaf zchut are irrelevant. If someone is asking "what should I think of my Shabbos guests who always ask to be excused after one hour" - then yes, please, let's share the dozens of reasons why that might have been a perfectly normal thing to do and not an insult.

But we're not talking about that, we're talking about what guests should do. And guests should realize that when you accept an invitation to visit someone, you're expected to socialize with them. That doesn't mean you have to spend all day and night chit-chatting, but it does mean you're not going to leave halfway through the meal (OK, maybe if they have 8-hour meals... ), or to ignore them in favor of holding private conversations that they aren't invited to join.

(If you can't manage that, that's OK - but then the polite thing to do is to find an alternative way of meeting that meets your needs.)

amother

Wed, Nov 27 2013, 1:33 pm

How's this for extreme?
I came down with the flu right in the middle of a Friday night meal (I only realized this after the fact).
Suddenly I felt absolutely awful, but I was uncomfortable to just leave. I went to their bathroom, and lay down on their bathroom floor, for as long as a "visit to the bathroom" would allow. I recall doing this more than once during the meal.

In hindsight, excusing myself from the meal would have been very appropriate!

amother

Thu, Nov 28 2013, 1:15 pm

amother wrote:

Never mind the fact that you are contagious.

chocolate moose

Thu, Nov 28 2013, 4:38 pm

There are a few issues here.

First of all, I don't like to go to people who spend all day or all night at the table. So I wouldn't go there. I don't blame you for getting antsy.

Also, if you find that they don't keep halacha properly, you definitely can't eat there.

Lastly, DH is like that. He prefers to eat and leave early, and I never liked that. I'd prefer to stay home when we're tired.

tsiggelle

Thu, Nov 28 2013, 4:51 pm

Two plus hours with people I love? I can't imagine that.

Eta; I have been to many types of families, and never had a meal go past two hours as far as I remember. Or there was the meal, bentching, and then whoever wants stays on to chat.

Last edited by tsiggelle on Thu, Nov 28 2013, 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

tsiggelle

Thu, Nov 28 2013, 4:54 pm

Barbara wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

I didn't read the entire thread yet, so excuse me if I missed it, but it could be that the host called for everyone to bentch, unless the op specified otherwise.

amother

Thu, Nov 28 2013, 5:42 pm

My parents have quick meals and we are free to move to the couch. My inlaws have three hour long meals and when we go to the couch, for comforts sake as it is right next to the table, we are summoned back. They also invite others to come for dessert to get to spend more time with us. This is without asking if we're interested in spending time with those people or even telling us to expect it. So after a three hour meal when we are ready for our naps we have to stay even longer to entertain the dessert company who without fail are really late. EVERY time. And they still complain when we leave (they don't have room to put us up to sleep).

granolamom

Thu, Nov 28 2013, 6:51 pm

amother wrote:

What if it's hard for you to stare at food you can't eat (because the rest was put on the blech shabbos, and the food wasn't dry)?

you deal with it. same if you are on a gluten free diet, or paleo diet and staring at desserts you cannot have.

tsiggelle

Thu, Nov 28 2013, 6:57 pm

granolamom wrote:

amother wrote:

What if it's hard for you to stare at food you can't eat (because the rest was put on the blech shabbos, and the food wasn't dry)?

you deal with it. same if you are on a gluten free diet, or paleo diet and staring at desserts you cannot have.

Are you comparing dessert with a meal several hours long?

ValleyMom

Thu, Nov 28 2013, 7:34 pm

I simply cannot believe people are still debating whether it is proper etiquette to excuse oneself from a formal dinner or luncheon, according to Emily Post the answer is simply NO.

ValleyMom

Thu, Nov 28 2013, 7:34 pm

Of course there are extenuating circumstance...
If your water has broken then you must leave to the hospital...

ValleyMom

Thu, Nov 28 2013, 7:37 pm

Or in the case of one of my shabbos guests who needed a super tampon instead of a regular, poor thing, and ruined my white dining room chair. I felt so bad for her. She left rather abruptly. Obviously she was excused.
FYI The chair was completely salvageable.

EmesOrNT

Thu, Nov 28 2013, 7:40 pm

ValleyMom wrote:

I simply cannot believe people are still debating whether it is proper etiquette to excuse oneself from a formal dinner or luncheon, according to Emily Post the answer is simply NO.

I don't think family should be viewed as FORMAL.

And Emily Post never sat at a shabbos table with, presumably, family.

granolamom

Thu, Nov 28 2013, 8:45 pm

tsiggelle wrote:

granolamom wrote:

amother wrote:

What if it's hard for you to stare at food you can't eat (because the rest was put on the blech shabbos, and the food wasn't dry)?

you deal with it. same if you are on a gluten free diet, or paleo diet and staring at desserts you cannot have.

Are you comparing dessert with a meal several hours long?

not really, just saying. sometimes we eat out for shabbos lunch and the meal stretches on and on and on. dessert alone can be an hr and a half ordeal. I dont eat desserts aside from a bit of fruit, so yeah, I stare at all the goodies for a long time. you deal.

I see nothing wrong with excusing oneself for a short while (bathroom breaks especially if one is in need of a tampon change!). the trouble I sometimes have is when my kids are all melting down and crying from fatigue and such. I feel rude staying and I feel rude leaving. sometimes I sense that the hosts would love to say goodbye but feel rude rushing us out. whatever, so far we are still on good terms with the people who host us. so maybe that's the benchmark, when you get a letter from your host telling you you were rude, you probably were.