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Source for tzniut=mitzvah
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Peanut2




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 3:40 am
I've seen people write that women have a mitzvah of tzniut.

Does anyone have a source for tzniut being a mitzva? And furthermore, a mitzva that is specific to women?

I am looking for an actual source for it being a mitzva, from a rabbinic authority.

I am we'll aware that tzniut is a good positive trait and that there are midrashim and stories that indicate it is a good trait. I am looking for someone stating it is a mitzva. You know, like other mitzvot.

Thanks!
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esther09




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 6:32 am
Curious about this too. I always considered ir more of an important midah that we learn from the actions of various stories of our imahot. A trait we should try and emulate, bound by time and the society we live in. Clearly, this is not the majority opinion on this board. LOL
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 7:19 am
I have rarely heard tzniut is specific to women, because it is not.

The Gmara discusses tznius in many details, for both genders.
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iluvy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 7:30 am
Wow. I was just talking about this with my husband last night.

The mitzvah of "hatznea leches" means not making a spectacle out of yourself (acting loudly and vulgarly) and applies equally to men and women.

The halachos of tznius (knees, elbows, collarbone) come from what a man is not allowed to look at. A woman's obligation of tznius comes from the prohibition of lifnei iver.

There is almost certainly a strong daas yehudis component as well, but I don't really know what daas yehudis is or what role it plays in halacha.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 7:53 am
There is also a mitzva of not doing a chillul Hashem, like in a country where everyone wears floor length, complicated to wear knee length. There was a machlokes that way in Yemen. The first rabbis said not to veil your face as it's not the Jewish way, but then the modern ones said to do it (or you could do it?).

That said a man isn't supposed to stare at any part without a good reason, so we definitely, BH, don't cover everything they should look at Wink
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First Lady




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 8:41 am
To me Tznius is kinda like a Lo Essah than a Mitzah Essah.
Like you shouldn't cause a man to look at you. or Chukas Hagoy. Kol Isha, or other commandments that you shouldn't do in your manner of dress or action that will be attractive to men.
I do not have any sources and got a very twisted education on Tznius. Exploding anger
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yonah




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 9:27 am
Tzniut is not a mitzvah because there is no source for it in the Torah.

And the gemara doesn't count as a source in this case.

Though if you're going to go the gemara route, my DH loves to tell the story of two rabbanim who were walking on the road and in front of them was a woman who wasn't dressed "modestly". One of them was going to say something to the woman, but the other one said, no. She is dressed the way she is dressed and it is on us to not look. (Not exact words, but that's the jist.)

In fact, the only Torahdik source that I've ever heard is that it stems from the pasuk "Vehatzneia lechet" and my DH is adamant that that only refers to modesty in terms of actions - which does not translate into way of dress. There are plenty of modestly dressed people out there who might as well be naked from the way they act. And honestly, if tzniut was supposed to be halacha, it would be written that way. Same with hair covering.

Someone brought that tzniut stems from the halachot of what a man isn't supposed to look at - I contest that they are ONLY brought down in terms of shmirat einayim for a man. Not that it's there to tell us what women should and shouldn't wear. Because again, if tzniut was supposed to be point blank halacha, then it would be written as such.

In conclusion, tzniut as it is now has turned into a monster that I'm sure God never intended it to be.

Especially with the way people constantly judge you on your clothes, both openly and in public. Heck, I once got a talking to at a temporary job because I was wearing knee highs with a knee length skirt, and someone "could see the top of my knee highs". You know. The banding that some of them have? Yeah.

Maybe it's just me, but I think that's kind of against everything tzniut is supposed to stand for anyway.
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iluvy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 9:28 am
Ruchel wrote:
There is also a mitzva of not doing a chillul Hashem, like in a country where everyone wears floor length, complicated to wear knee length. There was a machlokes that way in Yemen. The first rabbis said not to veil your face as it's not the Jewish way, but then the modern ones said to do it (or you could do it?).

That said a man isn't supposed to stare at any part without a good reason, so we definitely, BH, don't cover everything they should look at Wink


Yes, they're not supposed to stare at any part of a woman, even a little finger, but that's on them. But they're not supposed to see the "ervah" parts - shok etc., and that's where lifnei iver comes in, because seeing is passive.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 9:31 am
I agree Hashem never intended us to make life unlivable.

Still, there are PLENTY of written sources for various tznius ideas.
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iluvy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 9:35 am
yonah wrote:
Tzniut is not a mitzvah because there is no source for it in the Torah.

And the gemara doesn't count as a source in this case.

Sorry, what?

yonah wrote:

Someone brought that tzniut stems from the halachot of what a man isn't supposed to look at - I contest that they are ONLY brought down in terms of shmirat einayim for a man. Not that it's there to tell us what women should and shouldn't wear. Because again, [b]if tzniut was supposed to be point blank halacha, then it would be written as such.[\b]

What do you mean by this? It is a principle in halacha that if one person is not allowed to do something, another person is not allowed to cause them to do it. If men are not allowed to look at certain parts of women, then women are not allowed to display those parts in situations where men might see them. Halacha doesn't write point blank that you're not allowed to splash some milk into your friend's steak.

yonah wrote:

In conclusion, tzniut as it is now has turned into a monster that I'm sure God never intended it to be.

I don't disagree.
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cookiecutter




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 9:37 am
Goodness you people are ignorant. It's a clear mishna that you can find in your siddur for Friday night. "On three aveiros women die in childbirth: Niddah, Challah, and Hadlakas HaNer." Wait a second. Actually, tznius is not one of them. Sorry, carry on!
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 9:39 am
Yonah, pease show me how everything we do (or don't do) on shabbat is directly from the Torah. Good luck.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 9:48 am
Hatznea leches is from Micha, and does refer to one's entire demeanor. Actions, thoughts, attitudes, dress, speech, etc.

But in the Torah we have "v'lo yihiyeh b'cha ervas davar" speaking specifically about covering body parts.

However, the question in the OP is based on a misconception: that we are people who happen to have a mitzvah somewhere attached to us to be tzanua.
That is understanding the concept of tznius incorrectly.

Tznius simply put is allowing our true selves, our neshamos, to shine through. It's the very foundation of living since our body is just an external container to hold our true selves. If you see the body as your essence, then you will question if there is an actual source for tznius. But if you think of yourself as the Godly part of you, it is inherent and obvious that it needs to be expressed in a Godly manner. In the externalities of dress, in the externalities of behavior, in the externalities of every facet of life in this world. It's so much enmeshed as a fundamental of being a neshama that there didn't need to be an 11th commandment: One must dress modestly. It's a given. So, yes, we do have commandments to ensure there is no unclad parts showing when they shouldn't, but that's almost an aside...it's to clarify that which we need outlined because we aren't so in touch with our spiritual selves....but it's secondary to the very metzius that we are our neshamos.
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yonah




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 9:51 am
Apologies for anything that's not written clearly. I realize that I should probably not debate things while exhausted, but tzniut is a topic that gets me all fired up and I can't help myself.

Quote:
Sorry, what?


Most things we do as mitzvos come from the Torah, right? Well, tzniut is not one of those. I want a Torahdik source for tzniut, not just someone telling me that tzniut is a mitzvah because it's brought down in the gemara.

Quote:
What do you mean by this? It is a principle in halacha that if one person is not allowed to do something, another person is not allowed to cause them to do it. If men are not allowed to look at certain parts of women, then women are not allowed to display those parts in situations where men might see them. Halacha doesn't write point blank that you're not allowed to splash some milk into your friend's steak.


Except basar bechalav is completely different. Though don't get me started on that because I have issues with the source for that too... even though it is from the Torah. Basar bechalav (despite my misgivings about how we derive it) is clearly three separate deoraisas. It does NOT follow that just because a man should not look at it, a woman shouldn't display it.

In terms of "Lifnei Iver" it simply means that you shouldn't dress sexily and alluring. But the way things are now, me in my short sleeve top and knee length (sometimes slightly above the knee, even) skirt and no tights, well, people apparently that that's s-xy. Meanwhile you see women who dressed "properly" look more s-xy and alluring than me. Also, do you think that if there's a man out there who has an ear fetisih, does that mean that I should don a hijab and cover my ears because I might encounter such a person on the street and be over on "lifnei over"?

Quote:
Yonah, pease show me how everything we do (or don't do) on shabbat is directly from the Torah. Good luck.


Oh, believe me, I have issues with that one too. Lighting candles and saying "asher kidishanu bemitzvosav VETZIVANU"? I still light but I've stopped saying the bracha.

But at least the gemara has a logical point in where it derives the avot melacha from. Like tzniut, I also think that we take hilchot Shabbat a little too far nowadays.
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iluvy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 9:53 am
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:
Hatznea leches is from Micha, and does refer to one's entire demeanor. Actions, thoughts, attitudes, dress, speech, etc.

But in the Torah we have "v'lo yihiyeh b'cha ervas davar" speaking specifically about covering body parts.

However, the question in the OP is based on a misconception: that we are people who happen to have a mitzvah somewhere attached to us to be tzanua.
That is understanding the concept of tznius incorrectly.

Tznius simply put is allowing our true selves, our neshamos, to shine through. It's the very foundation of living since our body is just an external container to hold our true selves. If you see the body as your essence, then you will question if there is an actual source for tznius. But if you think of yourself as the Godly part of you, it is inherent and obvious that it needs to be expressed in a Godly manner. In the externalities of dress, in the externalities of behavior, in the externalities of every facet of life in this world. It's so much enmeshed as a fundamental of being a neshama that there didn't need to be an 11th commandment: One must dress modestly. It's a given. So, yes, we do have commandments to ensure there is no unclad parts showing when they shouldn't, but that's almost an aside...it's to clarify that which we need outlined because we aren't so in touch with our spiritual selves....but it's secondary to the very metzius that we are our neshamos.


Hashem_Yaazor, you wrote that very beautifully, and it's very important not to lose sight of the "ta'am" of tznius. However, I think it's also very important to know that tznius is a mitzva like any other with specific halachos. "Expressing the Godly part of you in a Godly manner" can cover anything from a tasteful T-shirt and jeans to an all-encompassing burka.
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Simple1




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 9:58 am
HY, in that case it's a mitzva for both men and women.

In fact, come to think of it, the men in right wing communities cover up just as much or more than the women - they wear long pants. Many but not all wear long sleeves. Even short sleeves are not all that short. The more yeshivish and chassidish wear many layers - tzitzis, shirt, jacket etc. Colors and styles are very conservative.

I think the reason why tznius has become over-stressed in the past years, is because there is more of a temptation nowadays. When I was growing up, looser tops and longer skirts were in style.

So bottom line, in my opinion, it's more accurate to call it the women's challenge today.
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iluvy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 10:01 am
Yonah, we clearly have very different criteria for what's a mitzva and what's not, so I'm not going to debate on that head, but you did misunderstand something I said.

yonah wrote:

In terms of "Lifnei Iver" it simply means that you shouldn't dress sexily and alluring. But the way things are now, me in my short sleeve top and knee length (sometimes slightly above the knee, even) skirt and no tights, well, people apparently that that's s-xy. Meanwhile you see women who dressed "properly" look more s-xy and alluring than me. Also, do you think that if there's a man out there who has an ear fetisih, does that mean that I should don a hijab and cover my ears because I might encounter such a person on the street and be over on "lifnei over"?


Men are not allowed to stare at any part of a woman's body for the purpose of deriving pleasure. That is their problem. A man who has an ear fixation is responsible not to ogle yours. That's not part of lifnei iver.

Lifnei iver simply applies to the fact that men are not allowed to see certain parts of a woman's body. It doesn't matter if a thigh is wobbly and hairy and riddled with cellulite, he's not allowed to look at it. Nothing to do with being attractive or attracting or whichever one you're not supposed to be. So no, it's not determined by a particular woman or a particular man, it's just about the boundaries outlined in halacha.

Not looking sxy has more to do with hatznea leches and inner dignity. And you will usually find that the men whose wives are careful about this are careful in their own dress as well.
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Simple1




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 10:02 am
Does Tanach count as a source for you? והצנע לכת עם אלהיך is from Micha, I think.
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yonah




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 10:11 am
Simple1 wrote:
Does Tanach count as a source for you? והצנע לכת עם אלהיך is from Micha, I think.


This is all I have time for right now. I'll get to everything else later.

In short, that's the source that I have a major issue with and someone has already agreed that this pasuk most likely refers to midot. I want a direct aseh or lo taaseh that tzniut for women is a stand alone mitzvah. And does not involve lifnei iver and shmirat einayim, which applies regardless what a woman is wearing. A Jewish man has the mitzvah of shmirat einayim even if a woman were to don a burka and niqab.

I also just want to add that in all honesty I don't have a major issue with having something like tzniut as a mitzvah. But what I really have issue with is the way we go about it today, with all the fire and brimstone about how the world's problems are caused by women not dressing according to that specific Rabbi's level of tzniut, and the constant judging by people who think you're not a good enough Jew based on your level of tzniut.

Even my DH has encountered issues because he wears colored shirts on Shabbat and doesn't wear button downs every day. And he's gotten passed up for minyanim purely because of the srugah he wears on his head when it was a more yeshivish guy who was looking to fill the ten. Speaking of men's tzniut.
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Simple1




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 05 2013, 10:22 am
Oy - I copied and pasted the quote and it has Hashem's name...

I don't either love the overemphasis on tznius as the womens mitzva. When I was growing up, a women's role was defined as "eim by'sroel", nurturer, ezer knegdo, building a bayis neeman Torah home etc. Even those weren't so easy for a feminist to swallow.

But then again, I'm not so comfortable with the styles today, I think it demeans the women's body and makes them less taken seriously when they look like that.
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