Which would upset you more?...Lesbianism or Stealing?

greenfire

Wed, Mar 28 2007, 8:16 am

amother wrote:

greenfire wrote:

only1 has certainly got a lot of points way above in regard to the gay and lesbian relations ...
amother you are way off ... telling people to get married anyway ... that is a lie and living a lie and causing undue hardship and heartache to marry someone in such a manner ...

greenfire, you obviously did not read what I wrote. I never said there should be any lying. If a gay man marries a lesb woman, obviously there would be an openness about their s-xuality. No one is forcing them, if they can't do it stay single. But it is admirable to try to live a Torah life. Again, is a thief suppressing his stealing urges living a lie?

It is when people live in denial that they are gay and then marry that it is a huge issue ... but I should think that getting married and having kids just to appease the likes of people like you that they are living a lie as well ... you are wrong ... and there are gay frum people ... both male and female ... since nobody is perfect ... including you ... people sin in all areas and yet they are "frum"

amother

Wed, Mar 28 2007, 9:25 am

I don't think you have to live in denial about your desires to want to get married and have children. Having children is a no-brainer - plenty of gay people want children. When you're frum, the marriage pretty much goes along with the territory. And I still don't think there's a contradiction. There can be a marriage that is based on mutual respect and love. If the s-xual attraction isn't there, that is very sad. But often in hetero marriages the s-xual attraction isn't there. Granted, the hetero marriage probably (at least it shouldn't have) started out with no attraction, but it can happen. I think a man and a woman who are both gay can have a strong partnership and love, and that's a positive alternative to a life of celibacy. ESPECIALLY if they do want children. Maybe the urge to have children is stronger than the urge to have relations with the same gender. Then what?

amother

Wed, Mar 28 2007, 10:41 am

JRKmommy wrote:

Re stealing: Are we not taught that a parent who fails to teach their son a trade, teaches him to steal?

I think it's a bit of a cop out for parents to blame just the schools for children who can't support themselves. Parents choose the school.

I've said it before - but really, what is the purpose of calling yourself frum if your entire lifestyle is based upon committing a serious aveira? Why study Torah if you plan to violate a clear Torah commandment in order to do so? I don't see frum people posting that they'd love to eat glatt kosher, but non-kosher meat is cheaper and they need to feed their kids. I don't see them posting that they'd love to keep Shabbos, but they have to work to pay for things.

I agree 100%!!!!

mimsy7420

Wed, Mar 28 2007, 3:41 pm

mimivan wrote:

But the problem is that the gays make a big lifestyle thing about it. They're proud of it. At least a thief tries to hide, which shows he has some conscience. I would be as upset about a child being a theif as being gay (G-d forbid on both counts) if he went to Thief Pride parades, told other people that stealing is cool and should be tolerated and claim that robbing is a legitimate lifestyle choice.

that's not always true, a lot of the time they are aware of their orientation since they were small and tried to hide it from the world. They are not proud of it, and would give for anything to "cure themselves", especially when they come from a frum world where its so looked down on.

mimsy7420

Wed, Mar 28 2007, 3:44 pm

amother wrote:

Including me? What makes you say I'm not perfect? Wink

JRKmommy

Wed, Mar 28 2007, 3:48 pm

Some of the things that I've learned here about how common "working off the books" and lying to receive gov't benefits is in some communities have shocked me, because it does seem from some posts that there isn't a sense of shame or that one is doing something against halacha. Is condoning this so different than having a Geneiva Pride parade?

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Mar 29 2007, 3:54 am

mimivan wrote:

But the problem is that the gays make a big lifestyle thing about it. They're proud of it.

ppl of homosexual tendencies do not always make a big lifestyle thing about it. my family has a friend who is a lesbian. she told us, but we would never have known has she not told us. what you wrote above is a biiiiiiiiiiiig stereotype, not all gay and lesbian ppl make it known to the world and are proud of it. many just keep to themselves like heterosexual ppl. have you ever seen the documentary trembling before g-d? those ppl were not proud of it and not living the "gay life". they were gay and lesbian but were just your average joes.

also, I would be more upset if my child came home a stealer than a gay person. first of all, we are talking about a female and it is not the same issuras a mane being gay so I would definitely be more upset if I were to find out my child was stealing. that is a terrible sin.

southernbubby

Thu, Mar 29 2007, 9:02 am

A relative of mine is in the process of buying a house. The seller is a male homosexual. The art on the walls is 1000 miles south of decent. I have never seen such prust art in my entire life. I hope he can get the tumah out of the house and better buy the best mezuzzahs he can find. This man who lives this life has made it a lifestyle. While there may me those who suffer in silence, they are drowned out by those who have gay pride parades. Who would not stereotype and judge? There are people making loads of money on gay art and literature. It is thrown in our faces at every turn. Thieves are usually quiet about their avaira!

mimsy7420

Thu, Mar 29 2007, 9:23 am

southernbubby wrote:

You are stereotyping everyone in that unfortunate situation over one man?

Motek

Thu, Mar 29 2007, 2:30 pm

Kmelion wrote:

Whereas lesbianism is an issur d'rabanan

it is? source

Quote:

has a punishment of lashes I believe

source?

Quote:

and is not the same as male homosexuality.

true
We read about the sin of male homosexuality (and other s-xual sins) on Yom Kippur. It is an abomination and punishable by excision of the soul (like eating chometz on Pesach). The Land of Israel "vomits" out those who engage in it (and other s-xual sins).

As for stealing, the person has to return what he stole and pay a fine. Interestingly, in some (many?) machzorim, if you read the fine print before Neila, it says that there is no sin in the world that blocks a person's prayers like stealing.

Quote:

First of all, the question was lesbians, not gay men.

It's about both, see the poll and the first post.

Quote:

Actually, according to Rashi (and many others), while Lo Tignov AT THE END refers to kidnapping, to protect oneself from snatching people, one must first stop himself from petty theft so that he will never come to stealing greater objects.

That Rashi is not on the Dibros in Chumash. Where is it?

Kmelion wrote:

Most of the gay and lesbian men and women I know don't 'make a big lifestyle thing about it'. No more so than people celebrating Puerto Rico Day or Israeli Day or any number of parades that go through Manhattan.

you compare national pride to abomination pride?!

shabbat wrote:

ppl of homosexual tendencies do not always make a big lifestyle thing about it.

Nobody said "always." Last I checked, there was no such thing as a heterosexual parade anywhere.

Motek

Thu, Mar 29 2007, 2:54 pm

Hannah! wrote:

On lesbianism being an issur d'rabbanan, see the 9th perek of Rambam's Issurei Biyah, and the sources cited therein.

I don't see it there (did not read through every word) and I highly doubt it's an isur d'rabbanan since if you go to askmoses.com for example, the response is, it's not proper for reasons of modesty but no isur is cited.

DefyGravity

Thu, Mar 29 2007, 3:02 pm

Motek wrote:

DefyGravity wrote:

You do know that a big reason for divorce in the Jewish community is because someone tried out marriage even though they were gay, and that test couldn't withstand marriage.

A big reason? Got anything to back that up?

I read it in a local Orthodox Jewish Baltimore publication nearly a year ago.

It's ok, I know that's not a good enough source for you.

mimsy7420

Thu, Mar 29 2007, 3:10 pm

She's right Motek.

There are more couples that divorce for this reason then you think but I doubt they would go around telling people this is the reason. My father is a psychologist and has experience working with couples in this situation. Sometimes they can find a way to live together and sometimes they can't and they divorce.