they think car seats are optional

Teacup9

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 6:38 pm

I'm genuinely curious why it is so common in NYC to see children not in carseats and not even in seatbelts. Like I get that every parent doesn't give healthy food ALL of the time and why maybe some of us have different rules about what is safe to play with, what age to use a knife, how high one can climb, etc. I just don't get the car one. I know my parents believe in carseats, but aren't careful (without reminding) about expirations dates, good installment, good strapping in, etc and I guess that is because when they were last reading about these things just a carseat was good enough. My grandparents probably would think it was good enough to hold the baby especially if crying, hungry, etc. Are these parents just not aware of new laws? Is it because of no Internet or secular newspapers to learn them? Do they believe it is all up to Hashem so make no effort? I don't want to insult or make fun of anyone. I just don't understand.

gold21

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 9:35 pm

SplitPea wrote:

Personally I would rather have his family hate me and dh think I am nuts and my daughter alive.

If it were me inlaws would not be permitted to take my kids in their card. Ever. I don't do car pools etc because I am crazy about carseat safety (my 3.5 year old still rear faces!)

Car seat safety is MAJOR and people can die. It would be a non compromise able situation for me. Watch a few crash test videos and read a few news stories about kids flying out of cars. NEVER compromise on safety. It is literally life or death.

Make everyone mad. Learn your facts and stick to them. Be blunt and honest and protect your child. You are all they have and you could quite literally be saving their life.

No, don't make everyone mad.
You can be respectful and firm at the same time.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 9:51 pm

Teacup9 wrote:

It might be worth noting that the Freakenomics authors (probably discussed here) found carseats to be marginally safer than seatbelts for children over two but I don't remember if this was do to carseat use error. Also I keep my six year old in a 5 point harness except for carpool!

There is no data to indicate that harnessing over boostering a forward facing child adds to safety, except for the fact that many young boostered children do not sit properly (slouch, cross feet, fall asleep and accidentally do this)...but rear facing is so much safer, so a 3 yo rear faced is still way, way, way more protected than any other way. Adults should be rear facing too for best protection Wink

I think it's time I make a one page car seat info crib sheet...

pobody's nerfect

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 10:11 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I think it's time I make a one page car seat info crib sheet...

really? I was just wondering that. are you 100% positive? also, do you know the difference between a high back versus bottom-only booster?

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Jan 23 2014, 10:42 pm

Some highback boosters offer side impact protection. Highbacks MUST be used if in a backless, the child's head will reach over the seat's height. Highbacks are easier to thread the shoulder belt, but some backless boosters have threaders too. It really all boils down to what fits your kid in your vehicle the best.

I am positive about what I said -- that there is no data to show* a PROPERLY buckled child in a booster is safer than in a harness once they are forward facing....however, most children will not have the maturity before 5-6 to sit properly, especially on long road trips, and harnesses will therefore be a safer option.

*this does not mean that it's definitely true; it means that no studies have been done to indicate that harnessing leads to better outcomes than children properly restrained in their booster...this proper restraint is a big factor

wife2

Fri, Jan 24 2014, 12:17 am

Some people think it is only around the block, only low speeds, only for a few minutes. Parents and in-laws may not want to buy a new car seat if they rarely take their grandchildren around - you can buy one for them to keep in their car.

No one thinks it will happen to them and it shouldn't ever ch"v happen to anyone. But accidents can happen anytime, anywhere, any speed, any street, even in a stopped or parked car. The least hishtadlus to do is to be careful about safety rules. It is a big deal. No one would ever forgive themselves if something happened to their child due to their carelessness or laxity. Explain this to your dh and his family. Would they ch"v want to be accountable for something that happened? Wouldn't they want to be responsible even if it takes them an extra minute to strap a child in knowing they are using their efforts to ensure maximum safety for a life? They don't think it is important for short trips or just because they don't realize.

There are videos of children flying out of cars and live footage of actual real car crashes. It is scary and not pleasant to see but perhaps your dh should see reality for what it is. It is so sad that most injuries or fatalities could have been prevented or lessened with proper car seat safety and installation.

bamamama

Fri, Jan 24 2014, 1:20 am

So they don't mind breaking the law? Tell your DH that you'll bring home pepperoni pizza for supper tomorrow. It's easy and if we're breaking laws... and while you're at it, don't bother to stop at red lights. I mean, you'll look to see no one is coming, right? And it's so cold out - who wants to go to mikveh? Let's just skip it this month.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic. But these people are probably super makpid about kashrut and Shabbos observance but they are so lax with the safety of the helpless children they have in their charge? For shame.

SplitPea

Fri, Jan 24 2014, 7:38 am

bluebird wrote:

I 100% agree that OP's husband needs to be scared straight on this, but that article mentions that the father may have been drinking and driving. That just gives a reason for OP's family to point out that they're fine because they don't drink and drive. So this specific case may not be the best to use.

So had the father not been drinking he might not have CAUSED the accident but what about that unsafe driver in the oncoming lane? Many very safe drivers get in accidents every day because of others.

morah

Fri, Jan 24 2014, 8:12 am

bamamama wrote:

I'm sorry, but you are very wrong. This is EQUALLY a problem amongst non Jews. The Car Seat Lady doesn't do what she does because of Boro Park, she does it because this is a problem throughout the country among every stripe. Even Supposedly educated rich people get stupid about it- if I had a dollar for every Park Avenue type that gets into a cab with their two years old on their lap, well, I'd be living on Park Avenue myself.

I have an Indian colleague and she is having the same issue with her parents. In India, most people don't use car seats at all (just starting to gain traction there). Her parents (and many Indian grandparents) can't imagine that being strapped in some contraption could possibly be a better idea than being in a loving pair of arms.

There is a lot of misinformation out there about car seats and a lot of lazy people who don't want to bother for "just around the block". And don't get started on boosters. The Car Seat Lady's page is filled with posts about all these people who don't think anything at all is necessary past the age of 3 or 4, how to handle the 5 year old complaining that he's the ONLY ONE in his class whose parents make him sit in a booster (and its not typical but-everyone-does-it kid talk) and how this causes problems arranging rides and carpools.

Car seat safety is a problem for EVERYONE. Not just frum Jews. Not everything is a frum people only care about about skirt lengths issue.

amother

Fri, Jan 24 2014, 10:54 am

Amother due to identifying details.

Two examples of the need for car seats / seat belts:

In the community I was living in 10 years ago, an 8 yr old was wearing a seat belt (no booster seat) in an urban area. Another driver ran a stop sign and hit the family's car. The girl submarined (went under the seat belt) and was thrown from the car and did not survive. At 8 yrs old she was still too small (as many are) for an adult seat belt. This was a local trip - no high speeds. In the UK booster seats are now required for under 12 yrs old for this very reason.

When I was at university I was on a vacation with some other students. We were driving on country roads. In those days seat belts were not required in the back (although this car had them) and the 2 people in the back were not wearing them. The car crashed and the 2 people in the back were thrown over the heads of the 2 people in the front and through the windshield. One weighed probably around 200lbs and the other probably around 110lbs (she was 19 yrs old) - she did not survive. This happened 22 years ago and still affects me to this day.

In these cases appropriate harnesses would have saved their lives. If they couldn't "hold on", kal v'chomer a young child or baby couldn't. I will never drive if everyone isn't strapped in appropriately and won't let my kids go in a car without it - they know this and refuse to double buckle. Before they learn to drive I will show them photos I took of the car - until that accident I never realized that a car is a lethal weapon - and how vulnerable we are in a car.

Barbara

Fri, Jan 24 2014, 11:18 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I don't think its clear that high back boosters offer side protection, although just looking at them, it feels like it should be the case. We kept DS in a high back booster until he was "embarrassed" by it, then switched to a backless booster so none of his friends could see it when he climbed into the car.

In terms of 5 point harness vs. booster, remember, until relatively recently, most car seats only went to 40 pounds. It will probably be a while before we have real stats on increased safety of harnesses for older and larger kids.

Hashem_Yaazor

Fri, Jan 24 2014, 11:51 am

Barbara wrote:

I said SOME highbacks Smile

You're absolutely right that not all do. It does, though, help minimize the space the head can go from side to side if the crash is in a way that the head doesn't flop forward...but many highbacks do not have foam or pillows on the side. My Recaro Vivo does have, but it's also more expensive than many other highbacks...

Right, I didn't mean to imply we never will have data on what is safer, but right now there is none for harnesses in bigger children over boosters. The main thing is that the seat fits the child properly. I see way too many kids in boosters who do not follow the guidelines. I've seen 2 year olds in boosters! Yes, submarining can happen then Sad

Especially since most little kids slouch for comfort or cross their legs...

My 8.5 yo is boostered. Yes, all my kids are in seats appropriate to their size/age, and it's a tight squeeze and takes much longer to buckle when wedging hands in between other car seats...but safety is a priority in my eyes, and I would never want to compromise that for convenience.

To the poster who posted about short rides as an excuse, most accidents happen within 5 miles from home. Not a good justification.

I have a lot of kids in my carpools who have this mistaken notion that they can unbuckle as soon as we pull into the parking lot. There are speed bumps in the parking lot which actually scares me more because the kids would bump up if they are unbuckled. I told them in no uncertain terms that in my car we buckle when the car is parked and the driver has said they can. My kids know to follow this rule in other people's cars (I hope they do, at least!)

I actually had a kid the other day who OPENED the car door before I was done parking, even though he was still buckled. I guess I have to reword my speech Tongue Out

bamamama

Sun, Jan 26 2014, 1:10 am

morah wrote:

I'm not sure where you understood that I think this is only a problem in the frum community. Clearly that's not the case. But, since we are discussing the frum community, it makes sense to point out that people who are makpid in laws where we don't see the direct benefit ought not accuse people of being "paranoid" about safety laws where we clearly do see a direct benefit.