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P3- billing when child doesn't show up



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amother


 

Post Mon, Jan 27 2014, 2:53 pm
Is it legal/ ethical to bill for p3 when the student didn't come? I'm not talking about billing for days that I didn't come but times that I specifically put aside for that student (when I could have worked with someone else and gotten paid for it). I would ask Patty Mullady but she's impossible to reach these days. I have asked her in the past about billing make-up days, she told me that if I work on legal holidays I can bill on yomim tovim instead, and she also told me that if I do a double session one day instead of one each day, I should just write that I did one each day. So those things I have no doubts about, but this I never asked her before. Anyone ever gotten an ok to bill for days that the student doesn't come?
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jan 27 2014, 3:09 pm
I don't work in this field, but how can you bill for work that you didn't do? You are lying, and might even get into trouble if caught.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jan 27 2014, 3:59 pm
I specifically asked someone from the board of ed who deals with p3 and she said no you cannot bill. Nobody answers the phone but they usually call back within 3 business days. The number that I call is 718-935-2760.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jan 27 2014, 4:41 pm
amother wrote:
I specifically asked someone from the board of ed who deals with p3 and she said no you cannot bill. Nobody answers the phone but they usually call back within 3 business days. The number that I call is 718-935-2760.
Thank you. I wonder if different people give different answers. Anyone else got a different answer?
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jan 27 2014, 4:43 pm
amother wrote:
I don't work in this field, but how can you bill for work that you didn't do? You are lying, and might even get into trouble if caught.
In many professions this is done. When I tutor privately, parents know that they have to pay even if the child doesn't show up. I don't want to lie or get in trouble, that's why I'm asking if it's allowed.
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Tirza




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 29 2014, 8:13 pm
No, I think that it is not allowed.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 29 2014, 10:32 pm
It is VERY clear and explicit in the P4 contract (the one that you have to sign in order to take the case) that you are ONLY allowed to bill for time when you are with the student. The student has to be there and you have to be there teaching them.

Yes, it is extremely annoying, especially when I break my neck running to be on time and then my first kid is absent and nobody bothered to tell me, and no normal professional would put up with that from private clients, but the DOE writes the script for this one and if you want the job, that's what you take. Tutoring privately you can make cancellation/missed session policies, but with P3 you're under contract with the DOE and legally required to play by their rules.

The only situation in which I might bend the rule about only billing when teaching the student: The student is there in school, I am there in school, but we don't have a session due to noncompliance/discipline issues. If I'm standing there by the office looking for him and waiting impatiently while he's being told off by the principal for beating up a kid at recess or whatever, I bill for my time. IMHO that is NOT the same thing as an absent student; disciplinary diversions are part and parcel of all teaching jobs.

It would be "mentchlich" for the responsible adult to give you advance notice if the student isn't going to be there so you can either schedule someone else or rearrange your own life accordingly. If there is an ongoing problem with that, a frequently repeated offense, you might consider finding a loophole to tell the responsible party that if they don't cancel the session within a certain timeframe, they will be personally billed for that time. I would advise that you first check if this is legal, because you're not allowed to accept any payment privately from the P3 students - but my theory is that maybe it doesn't count if you're not talking about payment for the P3 sessions themselves. Not sure.

Doing a double session on one day instead of a single session on two days is allowed, there is no reason not to - the mandate states how many sessions per week and it doesn't matter how you divide them up (though the billing system doesn't allow you to enter more than a certain amount of minutes with the same student per day. I believe it's 2 hours, and negotiation is underway to raise it - or something.) It just needs to add up to the right number of hours each week.

Billing on yomtov for legal holiday work is NOT an officially allowed policy. I'd be afraid to do it exactly like that especially if you work in a school, because you can be audited and they will easily see that there was no school on the day you billed. However, switching dates for legal holidays when yeshivas are open, so that the kids can get their services when they're in school, is UNOFFICIALLY accepted. They know people do it and they realize it makes sense, so they look the other way. However, please note that this is UNOFFICIAL and still not actually allowed. I'm shocked that a DOE employee actually told you to do this. (This is another policy that I think is silly and should be changed, but until it is we have to play their game. Makes no sense not to be allowed to give mandated services when the school is in session!)
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citimom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 30 2014, 2:52 am
I believe the agudah has someone who knows the ins and outs halachaklly.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 30 2014, 4:25 am
Seeker, I would be extremely cautious about your loophole of privately billing for no shows when it's against the rules. Medicare and Medicaid have similar guidelines, and billing privately for a no show is a serious offense, fraudulent and subject to penalty.

I absolutely understand the frustration in working with ridiculous regulations, but that is part of what you signed up for when becoming a service provider with the boe.
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forever21




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 30 2014, 5:39 am
seeker, I got an email from agudah that as of now you are allowed to bill for legal holidays bet. sept and june.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 30 2014, 8:33 am
MaBelleVie wrote:
Seeker, I would be extremely cautious about your loophole of privately billing for no shows when it's against the rules. Medicare and Medicaid have similar guidelines, and billing privately for a no show is a serious offense, fraudulent and subject to penalty.

I absolutely understand the frustration in working with ridiculous regulations, but that is part of what you signed up for when becoming a service provider with the boe.

It's not "my" loophole, I was giving OP a suggestion of something she can research if this is a problem for her. She has to do her own due diligence to figure out what's allowed. I don't do this personally.

I'm pretty sure that when I saw a therapist using a medicaid insurance, the forms I signed at the beginning said that I was fiscally responsible if anything wasn't covered by my insurance, and also on a different paper agreeing that a missed appointment without prior cancellation is billed as if it happened. However, I'm not entirely sure how it worked AND the DOE works very differently from medical insurance.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 30 2014, 8:36 am
forever21 wrote:
seeker, I got an email from agudah that as of now you are allowed to bill for legal holidays bet. sept and june.
I saw that notice from Agudah too, but I emailed NPSP to confirm it and they denied it vehemently. So I don't know what's going on, but be careful! Yeesh. We work for a confusing agency!
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forever21




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 30 2014, 3:26 pm
Why are they so against us billing for legal holidays? bec then theyd have to pay us more for those days?? If you spoke to 10 diff people at the board of ed you'll get 10 diff responses!
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