Measles outbreak NYC

chavs

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 4:06 pm

I'm Danish and for those who don't know Denmark and Sweden border each other and are very similar in culture and how children are briught up.
To begin with at infancy.
Almost everyone in Denmark/Sweden breastfeed.
Children are not left to cry it out (social services would be called).
All babies have at least one nap in their pram outside no matter weather (and it gets cold).
Children go to nursery from fairly you but start school later.
Children in nursery and school spend a lot of time outside (no matter the weather).
School hours are shorter.
There is less obesity.
Lots of ppl bicycle.
Ppl eat a lot of meat, potatoes and sauce.
Lunch is usually a special bread known as rye bread made with a sour dough (very heavy but lovely and healthy).
Soft drinks are quite expensive and not drunk on a regular basis.

In Sweden (not Denmark) alcohol is illegal.

I have never heard of anyone not vaccinating.

bubbebia

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 4:17 pm

With all this discussion about to vax or not to vax, I gather all of you are from rather recent generations. None of you have ever seen measles nor have you ever had the "pleasure" of having measles. I come from the generation who weren't fortunate to have the availability of vaccine. I had all those diseases that none of you have ever seen. I had measles. I had German measles. I had mumps--twice. I had chicken pox--twice. Having these diseases is not like having a cold. These diseases were debilitating. Some of these diseases maimed. And some of these diseases killed. There is no treatment for these diseases, only palliative care.

I remember having the measles. I remember lying in a darkened room because I couldn't tolerate the light. I remember burning up from the fever. I remember itching from the rash. Mostly I remember crying because I was so sick. I don't understand why you would potentially allow your children to have these diseases when you can prevent them. The disease is a whole lot worse than the prevention.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 5:14 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

That is in dispute, but I won't go into that.

What I will correct is the notion that the death rate of measles is 1%. Far from it.
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/......html
In all age groups (even high risk included) the death rate was under .3% (CDC info in the US from 1987-2000)

So, your information is thirteen years old.

It is pre-nine-eleven.

All kinds of things may have changed since then, including new strains, new people present in the US, much more international travel than back then, wars that create refugees some of whom come to the US, and who knows.

(What is in dispute?)

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 6:22 pm

In dispute: the disease being worse than the prevention. For vaccine-injured children, that is not self-evident.

What is wrong with my information? It's not worse these days (they haven't changed the measles vaccine to include new strains, if that's what you're suggesting). In the US, with good hygiene and healthcare access, the point remains: measles doesn't kill 1/100 kids (1%). There was a post that said that. I wanted to clarify for anyone reading this thread not to take that statistic as absolute truth, because it's far, far from it. (It's a .26% rate vs 1% based on that data.)

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 6:28 pm

You want updated information? I'm actually taking the time to look it up because I think it's important for people to have facts and make informed decisions, and not rely on inaccurate and inflated data. So I'll probably find more, but this is for a start:
Americas: The last case of endemic measles was reported from the region in 2002. In 2011 the Region has received reports of several outbreaks linked to importation of measles virus from other regions. The largest, in Quebec, Canada, involves 742 reported cases, 89 requiring hospitalization, but no measles-associated deaths. Other outbreaks have been reported from the United States (213 cases), Ecuador (41 cases), Brazil (18 cases), Columbia (7 cases), Mexico (3 cases), and Chile (6 cases). Most of these outbreaks are linked to importations from Europe, except for outbreaks in the United States and Chile linked to cases from Malaysia and the outbreak in Ecuador, linked to Kenya.

http://www.who.int/csr/don/2011_10_07/en/

(Does that sound close to 1% to you?! 0 deaths in hundreds and hundreds of cases.)

Barbara

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 6:33 pm

SplitPea wrote:

That coupled with the fact that countries like sweeden that give MUCH MUCH less vaccines than America have a MUCH lower infant mortality rate.

It's interesting that of the developed world the US and Canada have the highest vaccine rate to children but also one of the highest infant mortality rates...

In fact, the high infant mortality rate in the US is probably linked to the high number of premature babies, and to the lack of prenatal care available to many poor women. In the United States, almost one in eight babies is born between 22 and 37 weeks’ gestation. That’s nearly the highest rate in the industrialized world — second only to Cyprus. The U.S. prematurity rate is double that of Finland, Japan, Norway and Sweden, according to the 2013 report by Save the Children.

Try blaming that on vaccines.

maliza

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 7:07 pm

Mentioned several times are statistics related to infant death.
What would not be included in the term "infant death" would be miscarriage (which is still death), or the babies who survive with gross (meaning overwhelmingly excessive) abnormalities.

My personal opinion regarding non-vaccinated about-to-get-married young women is that the parents should undertake to carry the "ohl" (burden) of any miscarriage, fetal abnormalities, or infant death upon themselves (if directly related to the young woman acquiring the disease). They should provide the emotional care the married couple will need, and all the financial costs of care for the baby with deformities for the life of that child.

There is a risk in vaccinating, albeit a small one (although not so small for the child who does react badly to a vaccination.) There is a much larger risk, and graver responsibility, involving many more people (new parents, baby or young child, siblings, grandparents, caregivers, life long health care) for a pregnant woman becoming ill. Something to think about.

And to add to the above poster's memories of childhood diseases: I remember children having polio; I remember shortened legs in particular, and iron lungs. On Shabbos my father would visit the families and children on our return home from shul, but made me wait outside where the family wouldn't see me. It wasn't all that long ago! (or sure doesn't seem that way : )

Also on a personal note: ("you" is general and not aimed at any one person in particular)
If you claim to be unwilling to vaccinate because you don't want to put unnatural substances in your body, did your kids stuff their faces with all the candy and ****-nosh they received on Purim? do you eat non-organic chicken and meat (from animals who receive antibiotics), non-organic plants, fruits and vegetables (food dyes, antibiotics, chemicals to increase transport life, delay decay, prevent/kill infestation). Do you use food coloring in your baking? Eat colored foods (breakfast cereal, nosh, cake frosting, etc...) Can you deny one thing (immunization), yet embrace another? Do you clean your bathroom with Lysol or other toxic cleansers (warning labels read Danger! highly toxic! do not allow skin contact or inhale or ingest), do you polyurethane your wood floors, have kids sleeping in the house during painting (breathing in fumes), or use pesticides on your lawn? And there have been recalls for baby bottle nipples and formulas and baby food -- far more than recalls on vaccinations -- do you still use those items, or do you research baby items thoroughly before purchase? Etc, Etc, Etc.....

I just feel if a person is going to take a stand on non- immunization, than that person should be very stringent regarding that ideology in all areas of one's life.

chavs

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 7:16 pm

And another fun fact. This is about Denmark but I can't imagine Sweden is that dissimilar.

A woman has a right to 4 weeks maternity leave before the birth and 14 weeks after.
A father had a right to two weeks after the birth.
After the above mentioned leave, both parents have a right to 52 weeks leave that they can share between the two of them.

My point with all of this is that you really can't compare just on the basis of one thing . America and scandinavia are so different in so many things, you just can't compare.
I dint know why the infant mortality rate is lower there. It could be any of these things or something else entirely (maybe the viking blood-who knows). Picking one thing when the two countries are so different makes no sense though.

chavs

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 8:13 pm

I have no idea how they compare to other countries in terms of childs health. From what I'm given to understand infants are apparently better of in sweden though. I do know at there is much less obesity on the whole in Denmark and Sweden and ppl seem to be healthier. Children are usually breastfed and for longer as well.
In terms of vaccinating, I don't know anyone who don't do it and in genral ppl are much more into being similar then different. Part of the culture is that you fit in. I don't mean with things you can't help bit with things you can. There are also acceptable ways of being different but in general ppl follow the norm. When it comes to child rearing ppl are much more similar then in Let's say England (where I live). As I said something like leaving a baby to cry is not acceptable in Denmark and everyone takes their babies out for naps in the prams. There are just certain things that are done and that's how it is.
There are no laws like that as I said it's just part of the culture.
It's hard to explain properly without making the country sound really odd and it's actually quite nice.

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 8:25 pm

maliza wrote:

Also on a personal note: ("you" is general and not aimed at any one person in particular)
If you claim to be unwilling to vaccinate because you don't want to put unnatural substances in your body, did your kids stuff their faces with all the candy and ****-nosh they received on Purim? do you eat non-organic chicken and meat (from animals who receive antibiotics), non-organic plants, fruits and vegetables (food dyes, antibiotics, chemicals to increase transport life, delay decay, prevent/kill infestation). Do you use food coloring in your baking? Eat colored foods (breakfast cereal, nosh, cake frosting, etc...) Can you deny one thing (immunization), yet embrace another? Do you clean your bathroom with Lysol or other toxic cleansers (warning labels read Danger! highly toxic! do not allow skin contact or inhale or ingest), do you polyurethane your wood floors, have kids sleeping in the house during painting (breathing in fumes), or use pesticides on your lawn? And there have been recalls for baby bottle nipples and formulas and baby food -- far more than recalls on vaccinations -- do you still use those items, or do you research baby items thoroughly before purchase? Etc, Etc, Etc.....

I just feel if a person is going to take a stand on non- immunization, than that person should be very stringent regarding that ideology in all areas of one's life.

For the most part, that's what I see (although I would be hard-pressed to put myself in the no-vaccine camp). It's an entire lifestyle of making one's best choices for health. No one I know who chooses not to vaccinate does it without researching first, as part of an entire lifestyle of researched, educated choices.
However, it's very easy to recall food. There are no great repercussions for something pulled off the shelf when someone can easily replace that with another item. Vaccines are not as easy to just pull.

That being said, I use water to clean my floor, I don't own bleach, I do not use food coloring and try my hardest to make things from scratch, organic is not always possible, but we are conscious of it, we have a small porch garden (no lawn) and you bet we don't use pesticides, we don't give formula, nor have we ever painted our home, we don't use baby food, and very few baby items do we even use (and believe me, my car seats ARE well-researched), the candy and nosh my kids stuffed in their face on Purim was due to others' stupidity in giving them to my children and it's extremely closely monitored in this house with some confiscation but I have to balance that with not being the mother my kids will rebel against and stuff their faces outside the home, so I don't know what that has to do with anything. That is one long run-on non-sentence, but we do our best, and in imperfect world, our best has to be good enough. That doesn't mean for one second we should not do something else because we can't get everything 100% perfect.

Anyway, I did not see any poster in this thread make any claims that vaccines are unnatural and should therefore not be used, so I really don't know why I'm bothering disputing this with you.

maliza

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 9:48 pm

If you truly live a life style that is conscious and educated with the goal of protecting your family from a wide range of health and environmental issues, immunizations included, then I have no argument with that.

My statement regarding people who claim immunizations are "unnatural substances" refers to those who choose not to immunize their school-age children on the grounds of "religious exemption", which is in reality ideologically-based. There is a fair-sized number of families in yeshivas who refuse to immunize their children based on this reasoning. Ask any school nurse.

I just don't understand a parent strongly refusing to immunize their child when other lifestyle choices (such as in nutrition) negate their very own philosophy.