Letter - Family 1st - Women work for luxuries? - Feb 19

PinkandYellow

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 10:55 pm

gold21 wrote:

That's interesting, I wonder why you had the experience of landlords not renting to larger families....

I have 3 kids....KAH. I didn't know there was a cutoff....

I don't think there is any official cut off. All I know was that every time I called re an apartment for rent, the conversation went fine until I mentioned how many kids I have. I even had a friend tell me that she would never rent out her 4 bedroom, 2 bath apartment to someone with more then two kids. I'm in NY but a family member had a similar experience in another major US city.

My point is that for most of us, it's likely that there is not this family's standard of living or that family's standard. It's more likely a general cost of living. There are definitely specific luxuries that different families prefer but I doubt anybody works for that sole reason. If the second spouse is working for luxuries that means the salary of the first spouse is covering all their living expenses, and I find it hard to believe that that is possible for most families.

gold21

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 11:02 pm

PinkandYellow wrote:

I agree with your post. Just wondered about the # of kids thing. Thank you for elaborating. Smile

DrMom

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 11:08 pm

rosehill wrote:

The writer's premise is all wrong.
She assumes the husband is the default breadwinner, and the wife works to 'supplement'.
In some couples, the wife has greater earning potential, and the husband works either ensure the bills are paid, or to afford luxuries.
Just nobody judges working men.

seeker

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 11:13 pm

I think the main reason why there are more families now with two working parents is because the average cost of living has risen much faster than the average salary. And I'm talking about things like rent, food, gas, and insurance - not to even mention tuition - not luxuries.

When I first began working as a teenager, there were homes in the New York metro area that could be purchased under 100k. Even saying that here feels like a tall tale. But it's true. My parents' generation was advised with a notion that your housing should not cost more than, what was it, 30% of your income? Nowadays even to rent a non-fancy, not-very-roomy home in a metropolitan frum area is easily over 50% of an average salary. My savings from when I started saving until I actually started my family would have been enough to purchase a home at the prices they were when I started saving. In today's money and market they would not even total enough for a down payment.

I have been a careful budgeter ever since I became responsible for my own expenses. I have tracked prices of basic groceries at various times. I can assure you the prices of many goods have DOUBLED in less than a decade. Did your salary double? Mine neither.

It's not normal.

I do think the letter writer may have had a point regarding what we consider standard of living, but it was not expressed well and I also felt it condescending. However it is true that we are living with higher expectations than we need to. Even the silly little things that add up - what is considered standard snacks and accessories to send to school lest your child feel nebby...

tigerwife

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:16 am

I think a lot of the posters brought great points and good reasons for the OP'ed statement.

On the other hand, is there really something wrong with a woman working so that she can have her diamond watch and designer bag? I'm not saying that ever woman SHOULD HAVE luxuries because they deserve it. But if they really want it, and their husband's salary can't cover it, then why shouldn't they work for it themselves? Their are people who don't work at all but do loads of spending, without an inkling of what their spouses make and whether they actually can afford it.

Growing up, I was encouraged to work and spend my own money. It gave me a sense of responsibility and an idea of budgeting. It also made me realize that I can't rely on everyone else to get what I want.

Sure, standards of living have changed and some people are more needy in this area than others. So if you need the summer home or expensive school for your kids, go work for it.

Edited for spelling mistakes due to spell check ( Exploding anger

).

Last edited by tigerwife on Sun, Mar 02 2014, 7:01 am; edited 1 time in total

smiledr

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 7:31 am

The 50% statistic is just so off. We don't technically need my salary so I could say it goes toward luxuries but that would make me literally the one person I know who works and doesn't need to. Every single one of my friends who works (which is most of my friends) works bec they need to and the few who don't work can only stay at home because they get help from their parents and in laws. Cost of living is high and keeping up with the schwartzs is high and unfortunately pple feel compelled to keep up with their neighbors...

Ruchel

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 7:34 am

Some work because dh is deceased (lo alenu), sick, retired, doesn't make much, unemployed, left.
Some work because they don't want to stay home, and even pay higher childcare than the salary they get.
And everything in between.

What if people watched that happens at THEIR home, and didn't raise the bar of luxuries?

chaos

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:23 am

manhattanmom wrote:

So....if a woman wants to work so she can have what she and others may feel are luxuries, then let her! At least she's not forcing her husband to work more or to spend money they don't have.
It's way better than getting yourself into debt. So that's actually being pretty responsible.

This! If a woman works to earn more money so she can buy non-essentials that she wants and can afford, why is it anyone else's business?

OOTforlife

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:32 am

chaos wrote:

This! If a woman works to earn more money so she can buy non-essentials that she wants and can afford, why is it anyone else's business?

The typical mommy war response would be something like "She loves her handbags more than her children." For some frum flavor you could also throw in a "kol kevudah bas melech pnima."

amother

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:41 am

I have to work now because my husband is in school and someone needs to pay the bills. I probably don't HAVE to work as much as I do and I can probably budget better but one of the luxuries of having a decent salary is not having to worry about that (though honestly, with my work schedule I find making the time to go to different stores to get the best deals difficult). Also, I'm pregnant with my first so that makes a difference. My husband will be done school in about a year and we'll probably both work then (though I'll probably cut down a bit). We both have significant student loans to repay and better start saving up because we'd like to buy a house and once this kid is in school (and future kids iyh) bye bye money and our combined earning potential won't be enough to pay several yeshiva tuitions simultaneously.

amother

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 11:29 am

Of course I work for luxuries!!!! Thank you Family First for hitting the nail smack on the head!! After all, I work for luxuries like

plastic plates and cups (survival)
discount meat once a week for the cholent, and for Purim seuda and hubby's birthday
whole wheat flour instead of white
dentistry so our teeth won't rot
clothes because my kids' skirts won't cover their knees any more (all bought on clearance online mind you)
second hand furniture from craigslist or ikea
groceries (after all shouldn't we be subsisting on WIC and food stamps and bread and water?)
cleaning lady when I can get her occasionally (because I'm drowning while working and Mommy-ing and there is just no time for scrubbing unless I stop eating and sleeping)

I see I really need to work on myself. I should distance myself from these luxuries and learn to really live simply, like the 50% the article refers to.

bigsis144

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 11:37 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

Of course fewer women would be REQUIRED to work if the standard of living was lower. However, it is inconceivable today in most frum communities in the US to be ok with living in an apartment all your life. It is inconceivable to not send kids to camp. The list can go on and on.

Why do you think more women work today than did two generations ago?

Perhaps if we compare to that generation (1950's-1960's) specifically, but that era was actually an historical anomaly in terms of women staying out of the workforce.

Think of the immigrant generations at the turn of the century: women working in sweatshops or doing piecework at home to keep bread on the table.

In the Old Country, plenty of women worked as shopkeepers, seamstresses and other jobs. In more rural areas, women's work on the farm was just as necessary as any man's.

I remember Fox writing one of her trademark eloquent and logical essays on this... wish I could find it and link.

zaq

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 3:19 pm

Any woman who is willing to work to be able to afford luxuries rather than demand that her dh provide them, deserves to have them. That being said, most women I know work for luxuries like food on the table and a roof over their head, fripperies like school tuition for their children, or indulgences like health insurance.

And what, exactly, is wrong with working even if one doesn't need the money, just for the personal satisfaction? For the sense of contributing towards making the world a better place? To actually use one's education that probably cost one's parents a pretty penny? Not everyone is cut out to be a fulltime SAHM.

imasoftov

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:07 pm

http://www.lyricsbox.com/janis......html

I'd like to do a song of a great social and poetical import. It goes like this-

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz?
My friends all drive Porches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends.
So oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz?

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a color TV?
"Dialing for dollars" is trying to find me.
I wait for delivery each day until 3.
So oh Lord, won't you buy me a color TV?

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a night on the town?
I'm counting on you Lord, please don't let me down.
Prove that you love me and buy the next round.
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a night on the town?

Everybody

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz?
My friends all drive Porches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends.
So oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz?

justcallmeima

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 7:06 pm

Ladies. Please. It's 2014. Women who stay at home and take care of their children are WORKING!!! They are working very very hard for no pay and no recognition by society and often not even from their own families!!! Please stop saying "I don't work" if you have the bracha of being able to be a SAHM. Please don't say "I can't be a SAHM, I have to work". SAHMs work!!!! (btw, I work full time outside the home for pay, and I wish I didn't have to)

bookworm10

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 7:33 pm

I could work part time and we could afford basics. Rent, tuition, food...

I work full time to afford health insurance. To be able to pay off some of our school loans. To be able to cover a mortgage, and own our own home so as not to pay for someone else's mortgage.

Honestly, I think everyone gets all worked up when it comes to the working/SAHM issue. Everyone needs to do what they need to do, and leave it at that. Why do I care why you work?

What I do care about is those that don't work, who have full time help, kids with designer clothes, and look at me like I am the crazy one who's children's most expensive outfits come from the GAP.

But maybe I'm just jealous.

Hashem_Yaazor

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:38 pm

Some of the "luxuries" mentioned are davka because the women work (e.g. disposables) but I do think cost of living has risen in previous generations. Not to keep up with the Schwartzes -- although that is part of it -- but everything just costs more. Tuition, food, insurance, withholdings, gas, rent...