Wedding ceremony - Does the affiliation of the rabbi matter?

amother

Mon, Mar 03 2014, 11:22 am

A Jewish non-observant friend of mine is getting married. B'H her fiancé is Jewish too! Yay!
She has been interviewing rabbis for their wedding and they really clicked with this reform rabbi.
Her brother is BT and apparently said he would be upset if they went with this reform rabbi.

Does the affiliation of the rabbi who marries a couple matter? Is there any chance the kids may be mamzerim? If all the traditional elements are in place then does it matter if the nice reform rabbi marries them?

amother

Mon, Mar 03 2014, 11:32 am

Mazel Tov to your friend. Technically, you don't even need a rabbi to perform the ceremony at all. The most important thing is to have 2 kosher witnesses (that sign the Ketuba)= best scenario is both parents of each witness are halachically jewish.

notshanarishona

Mon, Mar 03 2014, 11:33 am

yes it matters for many reasons. a person who is not shomer shabbas cant b a witness halachically.

amother

Mon, Mar 03 2014, 11:34 am

A mamzer is a child born of an illicit relationship, eshet ish. A married woman that gets pregnant by a man other than her husband.

m in Israel

Mon, Mar 03 2014, 11:36 am

First of all, mamzerim don't come into the picture here unless she was previously married and not divorced (I.e. she is an eishes ish). The children of a couple who simply did not have a Kosher marriage are not mamzeirim. That being said, whether or not the marriage is kosher depends on numerous factors. The affiliation is not the point -- but the behavior is. For example if there are no shomer shabbos non related eidim, that could be a problem. The "traditional elements" are less important than the halachic ones. The brother can speak to a Rav who is knowledgeable in this area and make sure that they are married according to Halacha (if they are willing), regardless of who actually "marries" them in the ceremony.

amother

Mon, Mar 03 2014, 11:38 am

She is open to having all the other elements in place - Kesuba, witnesses, ring with no inscription, etc.. If everything is in place (besides an orthodox officiant) then could she still encounter problems?

m in Israel

Mon, Mar 03 2014, 11:39 am

amother wrote:

I just want to clarify you need 2 kosher witnesses to the ceremony -- they do not necessarily need to be the ones who sign the Kesubah, and signing the kesubah is not enough if they don't actually see him give her the ring. (Often there are 2 separate sets of witnesses for the Kesubah and the Kiddushin)

Marion

Mon, Mar 03 2014, 1:03 pm

notshanarishona wrote:

yes it matters for many reasons. a person who is not shomer shabbas cant b a witness halachically.

But the mesader kiddushin is not the only candidate for an eid. In fact, our mesader kiddushin would have been an invalid eid as well, and not because he was not shomer shabbat. Our eidim were ONLY our eidim; they were not the officiants in any capacity. Further, it is common in our circles to have different eidim for different tasks. Ergo the 2 eidim who signed our ketubah were not the same 2 eidim as witnessed kiddushin (with the ring) and also were not the same 2 eidim who were yichud witnesses.

MaBelleVie

Mon, Mar 03 2014, 2:38 pm

The role of the rabbi is actually to ensure that all aspects of the marriage are taking place kehalacha. If her frum brother is going to take on that role, and the rabbi will just be speaking or whatever, I don't see a problem.

Ruchel

Mon, Mar 03 2014, 2:42 pm

I had never heard of different/more than 2 eidim, or the messader kiddushin being one of them.

Re- inscriptions: my ring is engraved and totally kosher. We asked 3 rabbis LOL.

I have seen non shomer shabbes eidim for shalom... not sure if both weren't, not sure which rav said ok, but I know that at least in some of the cases, the question was asked.

The problem if the rav isn't Orthodox, is that if it's known some may consider them unmarried/civilly married if they do this also. If the wedding is kosher otherwise, well again it's a shaila... like if the rav is a male, shomer shabbes, the ketuba is kosher...
Last thing if they're not going to listen... maybe don't alert them on the halachic consequences as this isn't going to cause mamzerus etc.

OOTforlife

Mon, Mar 03 2014, 2:58 pm

If your friend and her fiancé are not observant, it may be better they don't have a halachic marriage. Just throwing that out there. YMMV.