is this appropriate and I'm just overreacting?

amother

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 9:03 am

anon, because I've discussed this IRL.

So. . . delicious, temimusdik, 10 year old DS tells me last night that Rebbe said "achashverosh invited Vashti to come to party in her crown-either because she would look more beautiful in her crown, or, ONLY in her crown. . ."

I don't see how this adds to his (DS) understanding of the Purim story and feel it is putting thoughts in his head that don't belong there at this age. He needs to know already that men enjoy looking at women naked?!!?

Crazy thing is, I immediately call up my friend with a son in 5th grade (another school, city, etc) and she said her DS told her the same thing (in the name of his rebbe). So obviously, this is standard part of 5th grade curriculum. Why? We both (my friend and I) thought it was really strange for a Rebbe to mention but now that I see it's "done" I am wondering if I am overreacting?

What do you think?

mummiedearest

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 9:09 am

it's possible that the rebbe told them that achashverosh did that to humiliate vashti and show he wielded the power even though she had the royal bloodline. he may not have said anything about naked = beauty.

amother

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 9:09 am

greenfire wrote:

everybody knows vashti came in naked ...

38 years old FFB, Bais Yaakov educated, never knew that until last night (or I forgot)?

I guess you're voting that I'm overreacting Smile

morah

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 9:11 am

I don't think you're overreacting. No need for a kid that age to know that. I didn't learn that midrash until I was a teen, and I don't even come from a particularly sheltered background. I thought we just tell the younguns about the spots and tail.

smss

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 9:19 am

amother wrote:

38 years old FFB, Bais Yaakov educated, never knew that until last night (or I forgot)?

really?!

I can't remember when I heard that first but it definitely came up in more than one megillah class. I hear what you're saying though, not sure if it needed to be said in a classroom of 5th grade boys...

ectomorph

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 9:25 am

I learned that in 5th grade too...it's completely standard.

It had no s*xual connotation to me back then.

Just wait until your son is learning Kesubos... Gemara is far more explicit.

How do you teach your kids Tanach if you skip every such thing? It''s a part of life.

black sheep

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 9:30 am

welcome to boys being taught by rebbes, who are not mothers. there isn't the natural filter that a mother would have. best to not act shocked when your son tells you what he learned in school, because there will be many more shockers, and you want him to come share with you so you can, as a mother, help him make sense of it all.

amother

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 9:35 am

ectomorph wrote:

I'm not saying it had a s*xual connotation to him but it was definitely shocking to him (not in a good way). There's a reason he mentioned it to me (and my friend's DS mentioned it to her as well). It was not a standard comment in either of their minds (from what I could tell).

ectomorph

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 10:01 am

amother wrote:

It is shocking, it shows what a rasha Achashveirosh was. Kudos to you for raising a son with sensitivity to shocking things.

I'm not saying it's not shocking - just that there is standard curriculum and this is part of it.

Was he shocked that the Rebbe told them about it, or that Achashverosh did such a thing?

amother

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 10:05 am

ectomorph wrote:

That Achashverosh would do such a thing. He would never question his rebbe. . .

Chayalle

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 10:14 am

amother wrote:

That Achashverosh would do such a thing. He would never question his rebbe. . .

And you can tell your son, that she (Vashti) deserved this, because she treated her Jewish maids no better.

ITA with posters that said, the connotation this has to a 10 year old is the humiliation. And it's ok for them to begin to know just how wicked these people in the megilla were. And how they got what they deserved, because Hashem punished them for their evil and wicked ways.

And yes, boys learn things straight out of the Gemara that will continue to, erm, surprise you. I remember things my brother learned....they don't think about it the way we do. They approach learning from a logical perspective, and think about what the Halachik implications might be....

My DH sometimes doesn't get why he shouldn't say certain things in front of the girls (in my opinion) because it's a straight out Gemarah, so what's the problem? That's where my Binah Yeseirah comes in......he doesn't think about things the way I do.

ectomorph

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 10:15 am

amother wrote:

That Achashverosh would do such a thing. He would never question his rebbe. . .

Wow. You're raising a good son. You should only get nachas from him!

sorry I misunderstood you before.

Ruchel

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 10:42 am

Yes, many schools including more on the MO side, "go over" the more adult things.
Some systems don't teach the whole thing until kollel, as much as this will surprise some.

There are ways to teach the Vashti story and make it s-xual or not.

amother

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 10:44 am

Ruchel wrote:

Both the school my DS goes to and the one my friend's son attends are yeshivish and the kids in the school are (at least officially Smile

sheltered.

morah

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 10:53 am

ectomorph wrote:

I in no way advocate trying to hide what's in Tanach, I know full well what's in there. But 5th grade is a little early for this. And it's not even in there, it's a midrash (though an excellent example of how midrashim deduce things from the language). I don't think I learned this till 8th or 9th. And like I said, I do not come from a sheltered background (you can read my recent Disney thread Wink

)

amother

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 11:27 am

My father was a Rebbe for many years and as far as he is concerned if it is in the Torah you teach it. If my father was teaching sefer breshis then Yehuda and Tamar was taught. Mishna Yuma the 5 Issurim of Yom Kippur are taught etc.

I did learn Yehuda and Tamar when I was in 4th grade the story line went over my head. I had no idea.

When we learned Shmuel II in 7th grade that made for some interesting learning.

Jewishmofm

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 12:34 pm

The world is full of wonderful things G-d made and ugly things people did with what G-d gave. Better to learn it in the abstract - these r'shaim and what they did - then IRL, where it does exist. BTW, my 5th grader is learning about rape ("a man forcing a woman to marry him") and bestiality ("this animal cannot be used for a korban because its owner acted like he was married to it"). Do we want them to bury their heads in the sand to this world, or learn about it through the eyes of chazal? Most boys will discover that a woman being naked exists, one way or another. Wouldn't you prefer it to be chazal's way? wouldn't you prefer they know that it is humiliating for a woman to be undressed (to any degree!) in public? rather than thinking that girl they meet walking down the street is something cool for a shirt that is more highlight than cover? If these ideas are planted in the abstract when they are young, it affects their approach in the concrete as they grow.