is this appropriate and I'm just overreacting?

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 3:51 pm

Don't fret.

It's ok.

Don't have a reaction in front of your son! THAT wouldn't be so good. Blank face.

THEY are different from ourselves. Don't worry about it. THEY know how to be them. Let it alone. Mysteries make life interesting, and this one isn't going away.

Be silent before it.

Let him know it is all right with you that one day he will turn into one of THEM.

He will, you know. You might as well go along with the program. It's G-d's program and it seems to work. Guess He knows what He is doing. It's not His first day on the job.

And anyway, there is nothing to do about it.

Hugs.

amother

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 4:03 pm

I am an oot BY girl and never heard that she came naked. My sons never learnt that either.

pizza4

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 4:08 pm

Chayalle wrote:

My DH sometimes doesn't get why he shouldn't say certain things in front of the girls (in my opinion) because it's a straight out Gemarah, so what's the problem? That's where my Binah Yeseirah comes in......he doesn't think about things the way I do.

Yes, mine too...

I did not know about this until after I got married...

We learned about a "story with Tamar"; that he wanted to marry her.

wiki

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 4:13 pm

In my elementary education (MO, but with many Yeshivish rebbes), the interpretation that Vashti was invited wearing only the crown was taught a few times in early elementary school. (I'm remembering sixth grade, but I remember that I already knew it well by that point.) It was shocking, but as others have said, only because it sounded so humiliating.

amother

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 4:31 pm

So what is the real story of yehuda and Tamar? I don't think we learned it

amother

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 4:55 pm

amother wrote:

38 years old FFB, Bais Yaakov educated, never knew that until last night (or I forgot)?

I guess you're voting that I'm overreacting Smile

same age , same education...never heard that either! Maybe we went to the same school Smile

SRS

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 6:16 pm

Use his new found knowledge to your advantage. The Torah is exciting. There are levels of detail out there that can compete with any other type of literature. And, by learning these details we learn about kedusha and about living through the lens of Torah.

eschaya

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 8:35 pm

One thing I'm seeing here (slightly off topic) is how boys are exposed to pretty much everything and taught all about what actually happened and happens (especially with regard to things that are just as - if not more - relevant to girls), while girls are pretty much kept in the dark. This bothers me to no end.
I agree with most above posters... we did eventually learn that Vashti was asked to come naked, but this was met with horror from us, ie "how horrible!", "what utter humiliation" and of course we could fathom why she refused. It had no s-xual connotations whatsoever.

imasoftov

Mon, Mar 10 2014, 8:38 pm

It's in Rashi. It's not like it's a secret.

chanchy123

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 4:58 am

I'm pretty sure I learned this in gan (preschool). It's quite standard.

EDITED
For some reason many posters said that Vashti, came nude. Obviously, she refused and Chazal give her credit for not coming do to her tzniut.

I'm surprised you women don't learn simple tanach with pshat commentary.

m in Israel

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 6:33 am

chanchy123 wrote:

Good point that she didn't actually COME undressed -- she was ordered to do so but refused. But interesting that you learned it was due to her tznius. I remember learning the opposite -- that Chazal specifically discuss the disfigurement she was afflicted with (tzaras/a tail depending on various opinions) to point out that she was so NOT tznius that she would have had no problem complying with such a request if not for the fact that she was embarrassed about how she looked.

But this is just from memory -- I haven't had a chance to actually look up sources yet. I'd love if you had more info.

m in Israel

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 6:38 am

OK, just looked it up quickly. The gemara in Megillah Daf 12 amud Beis says specifically on the words "and Vashti refused" that she was a "perutza" (the words of the gemarah), but nevertheless refused to come because Hashem caused her to break out in tzaraas.

imasinger

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 6:47 am

amother wrote:

So what is the real story of yehuda and Tamar? I don't think we learned it

Read the Chumash.

Happy18

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 8:01 am

I remember learning the Vashti refused version. This wasn't due to tznius reasons, rather we were taught that she had a tail, skin discoloration etc. AKA the reason why so many children's megillos show Vashti as green! I remember focusing more on the humiliation part than the fact that she was naked. However, this was a very MO education (MO lite? have to think about that one) and I doubt a single person in my grade didn't understand the idea that men find women attractive. For me growing up that was just a fact of life.

I do find it a bit surprising that many posters are still surprised at what boys learn from the Gemara. Open a gemara sometime, It doesn't really get much more explicit than that.

Happy18

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 8:07 am

amother wrote:

So what is the real story of yehuda and Tamar? I don't think we learned it

I recommend you open a chumash and read it with Rashi.

The short version is Tamar was married to Yehuda's son Air? Er? Sorry not sure anymore. Then he died. So following Yibum Tamar marries Onan however Onan does not complete the act inside Tamar and he is punished and dies early. Yehuda seeing this does not marry Tamar off to his youngest son. Essentially Tamar dresses herself up like a harlot and seduces Yehuda after his wife dies. She takes simanim from Yehuda. She gets pregnant is accused of being a harlot and presents Yehuda with the simanim and he realizes he is the father of the child.

I think thats the gist of it, someone please correct me if I left something out or made a mistake its been a long time.

Chayalle

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 9:20 am

I had a pretty standard BY education, and topics like Yehuda/Tamar, Dovid/Basheva were glossed over in lower elementary, taught a bit more in upper elementary, and more in high school. By the time seminary came, Torah was not taboo.

I definitely learned that Achashveirosh demanded that Vashti appear unclothed....and that she refused due to her appearance gone awry, not because of tznius. I don't remember when the facts were presented, just a build-up. I don't remember any shock or surprise.

My sister says that in 7th grade, when discussing Dovid/Bassheva, one classmate asked a very explicit question that stemmed from total ignorance....while the rest of the class snickered, the teacher calmly told the girl that that is a question she needs to discuss with her mother, and then continued with the lesson.

To the amother that posted that her father, a Rebbe, taught whatever is in the Torah, inclusive....In fact, I heard that R' Aharon Kotler held that that is the way Torah should be taught.

I took some Torah Umesorah counterforce parenting classes (highly recommend)....and the instructor told us that at the age of 6, her son learned in the Chumash that a man has the mitzvah of pru u'revu...so he asked her, what does this mean? Don't the ladies have babies? Why is the mitzva given to a man? She answered his question, telling him that indeed a man has a role in the creation of babies, with the woman he marries. This is a very frum woman, BTW.

Torah is Kedusha, no need to hide that when taught properly.

Chayalle

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 9:22 am

Happy18 wrote:

I recommend you open a chumash and read it with Rashi.

If Hebrew is a challenge for you, I recommend The Midrash Says series. Excellent for Shabbos reading and keeping up with the Parsha. And for the kids, The Little Medrash Says.

imasinger

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 9:26 am

Happy18 wrote:

I do believe the midrash is sometimes translated that Esther was green, not Vashti. Here's more:

Quote:

First, the mistranslation. The gemara actually says:
"Rabbi Yehoshua ben Korcha amar: Esther yerakroket hayeta, veChut shel chesed mashuch aleha."
The context is an analysis of the name hadassa, which Esther is given in the megilla. Many other explanations of hadassa are given, and then this one is given. hadassa, from hadas, meaning "myrtle." Thus, she was yerakroket, presumably like the myrtle. Indeed, Ktav Yad Oxford, which Jastrow cites, inserts kehadas, that she was yerakroket like a myrtle.

Now, since a myrtle is green, the natural inclination is to assume yerakroket means exactly the same deep green shade, and thus Esther is an alien or a lizard! yerakroket actually encompasses a wide range of colors, including yellow, blue, and green.

So what is yerakroket? The American Heritage Dictionary (cited at dictionary.com) perhaps comes to the rescue, in its definition of the word "sallow":

1)
sal·low
n.
A broad-leaved European willow (Salix caprea) having large catkins that appear before the leaves and tough wood used as a source of charcoal.

2)
sal·low

Of a sickly yellowish hue or complexion.

Looking at M-W.com

Main Entry: 2sallow
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English salowe, from Old English salu; akin to Old High German salo murky, Russian solovyi yellowish gray : of a grayish greenish yellow color

This is for the willow, not for the myrtle, but we see comparisons of plant color to complexion.

Background on the Daf meanwhile notes that it could mean green or yellow, and here translates as "a pale complexion" (taking it to mean "yellow").

(Indeed, Prooftexts 22 #3 has an article which translates yerakroket as "sallow." See here.)

Thus, one need not leap immediately to the conclusion that Esther was green. Perhaps she was pale, or better, she had a sallow - that is, a sickly greenish-yellow complexion. The fact that such a word exists means that it is not uncommon to occur. Such people look sickly and are typically not the paragon of beauty. But at the same time, they do not look like space aliens...

Ruchel

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 9:34 am

If anything I find girls get more explicit lessons... at least before HS graduating and moving on to yeshiva.

Even if something is written or in Rashi it can and is skipped if the teacher wants (lehavdil same in secular lit, of course some kids will try to read, others not, and for books some give photocopies to avoid that). Or it's translated differently... my dh is moreh for kids of various schools and definitely sees differences.The more modern, or the best level, is not necessarily the one with the most explicit and full learning.

Happy18

Tue, Mar 11 2014, 9:56 am

imasinger wrote:

Lol your right thats what I get for posting before I have my coffee embarrassed