Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Parenting our children -> School age children
8yo stealing and lying!! really need advice (long)!
1  2  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

amother


 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 9:05 am
(apologies that this is so long – if you can, please help! Amother to protect child's privacy)

Hi, am hoping someone can reassure me/ give me some advice about my son. He is 8yo, and has been both stealing and lying for a long time now. I have tried lots of diff approaches to no avail.
For a while last summer he was taking nash and then when we found the wrappers he would make up some concocted tale/ blame it on his brother. At that point, we were more concerned about the lying than the taking nash (which he did by sneaking out of his bed at night/ first thing in the am). We kept telling him, even if someone makes a mistake, instead of lying they should own up and they will be in far less trouble. So for a while every time he was caught he would say “sorry I made a mistake” etc and to show that we really did value honesty, we left it at that. We would talk about respecting people’s property etc but we really wanted to make sure the honesty was on track.

Since then the situation has escalated TONS. The taking nash thing continued (wherever we put it – it’s a small apt!), and included sneaking into our room if he found any nash there (when I would be giving younger siblings a bath etc – ie. he didn’t just chance upon it, it was quite pre-meditated in how he made sure that I wasn’t around). We tried lots of diff things: -
- Showing anger/ disappointment so he knew it wasn’t acceptable
- Ignoring somewhat in case it was an attention seeking thing. He really gets a lot of undivided attention particularly as he is the oldest and is awake later than his siblings
- Giving him more privileges/ responsibilities in case it was a control thing
- LOOOOOONNG discussions on honesty, what belongs to ppl, how he would handle it if he was the parent etc
- Confiscating some of his own money to “pay back” when he took particularly large items so he would understand the value of things
- Distributing nash to his siblings and not letting him have as he taken his share
- Discussing dental and health implications of all this junk he was consuming
- Even if we had less nash in the house he would take bars of chocolate that I use for baking!

I mention all these to show that whilst this has been going on for a while, we have tried to deal with it, and nothing (I’m sure there are other things we tried too) but NOTHING has made a slight impact! He wasn’t too savvy about hiding the evidence (wrappers under his pillow) but then he started putting them in his school bag etc so I was concerned that the deception was on the increase

NOW at this point it gets way worse. For some time he was coming back with small amounts of cash from school –2, 5 or 10 shekel. He claimed it was for making something desirable in the playground out of some random materials. Although it sounded suspicious, it was small amounts of money – ie wasn’t unthinkable that kids could be bringing in that amount of small change and buying something somewhat bizarre. Both my husband and I would always quiz him about it and each time the story checked out ie he didn’t change the details ever. So we kind of assumed that it was weird but decided to just keep an eye out

Last week I get a call from a parent that their kid has come back with a large sum of money (80nis approx) and said that they got it from my son who was giving it to him in exchange for snacks etc. To make a long story short, we questioned my son for about 45 mins – with his version of events getting more and more ridiculous, and more holes appearing in the story – after 45 mins of this, he finally admitted that all his stories this year had been a lie, and really he had been taking money from my wallet all year – recently as much an 100 nis note!!!
We really didn’t know how to respond – we said we were disappointed but we loved him and everyone makes mistakes and we have to work out a way of helping him get the money back so he can return it, etc but emphasized again and again the need to be honest. We could see we were just not getting through to him, and what do you know, 3 days later, when the kid gives him the money back (which the parent told us she was doing), we caught him having siphoned off some money off from that again

We are at such a loss!! I feel like we need professional advice at this point but am not sure where to turn. I know that imamother can’t replace a psychologist but I would still be really grateful if anyone has had a similar experience could share what has worked for them. I also wanted to add that he is generally a great kid who we have a good relationship with, behaves impeccably at school etc. if anyone has any wisdom, please share! Thank you!
Back to top

5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 9:47 am
Hugs to you! Although this has been going on for a while, it sounds like you have remained calm, loving and supportive and tried reasonable approaches throughout. Your ds is focusing exclusively on nosh or money to get nosh. From your post it doesn't sound like he has a stealing/lying problem so much as a nosh problem. An extreme nosh problem, which is unexpected in a child who does get a reasonable amount of nosh and has a strong relationship with his parents overall.

My first thought is that this is something you should consult with your pediatrician about. Perhaps there is an underlying blood sugar or other health issue at play here. I would speak to the doctor without your son present, and then bring him in for a thorough physical and anything else your ped suggests.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 9:53 am
In addition to seeing a pediatrician and possibly a psychologist, take the practical approach: get a lock with a key for your bedroom door and keep all money and nosh inside the locked room.

Yes, it's inconvenient but it will keep you from losing more money while you get to the root of the problem.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 10:20 am
I did this when I was your son's age. I used to take money from my mother's purse, and from other sources as well. Then I'd go to the grocery store and buy nosh. If I didn't get money for nosh, I sometimes stole from the grocery as well.

I did it because I felt deprived, in many areas, and the nosh somehow filled me.

I stopped when my conscience kicked in, toward my teen years.


Find out what is bothering your son, and why he needs to do this.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 10:23 am
I agree. Your child needs to see a pediatric psychologist. And your pediatrician of course. I also think that while it is important that you are emphasizing honesty, he needs to be punished every single time he steals or lies.

I have a child who also lies about everything under the sun (thankfully no stealing except one Purim years ago when we found wrappers in his closet. We no longer believe anything he says and every time he lies he loses something related to that lie or something he wants. Now, I will say the lying has not stopped, but at least he knows that we know. We emphasize honesty and do not have this issue with our other children. He does see a psychologist and a psychiatrist as he has ADHD.

My point is, you need to get help now to help you start to understand his motivations but more importantly to help you learn how to deal with this behavior.

And finally, a light note. While my son lies about the most ridiculous things, I will say - he is a terrible terrible liar. I mean, we can always tell it is a lie. So it is never anything malicious, but we just do not understand it.
Back to top

justcallmeima




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 11:51 am
I just want to say you are an AMAZING mother. Everything you have done so far is excellent. Obviously there is something underlying this behaviour for which you need professional help. But you can have complete peace of mind that this is not the result of poor parenting.
Back to top

groovy1224




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 12:26 pm
I want to second the sentiment that it sounds like you're handling the situation as best you can, with patience and love. Bravo.

I'm embarrassed to say it, but when I was his age I stole from my parents, too. I wasn't really wanting for anything specific, but I think I was embarrassed to ask for things and have them say no. So instead I just stole money for the vending machines in school. I was (and am, I like to think) otherwise emotionally healthy, but that is how I handled wanting something. I don't think my parents ever even found out what I was doing. Looking back, I try to think what my parents could have done to stop me from doing this, had they known.
Perhaps you can try pre-empting his desire to steal. So for example, before he goes to school, ask him if he wants some change to buy a snack. When he comes home from school, offer him a snack. Teach him that these things are readily available to him; all he has to do is ask. This way he won't have to resort to stealing. It may also help to give him an allowance; if he knows he has money coming to him at a set time every week, he won't need to take from you.
Obviously, at some point, you will have to cut back on how much you give him. You can't give him candy every time he asks for the rest of his life. But I think it sounds like somewhere inside him he wants to know he has access to all sorts of special treats; and the best way to insure that is to steal it when no one's looking. What you want to do is show him that you are willing to work with him to give him what he wants, but how to go about getting it in an appropriate manner. Once you feel you are making progress, you can start to say 'no' sometimes.
Be prepared that there will be setbacks- he probably feels a sort of 'rush' when he takes extra candy for himself, or takes money from you. He needs to outgrow that.

In addition, I also think you should start keeping the nosh somewhere he can't access. Same for your money. It may sound harsh, but it doesn't sound like he's a pathological liar..once it becomes too difficult for him to steal he will likely stop trying so hard.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 12:47 pm
Hi op and sorry for what you are going through.
We are in a similar situation with our almost 6 yr old dd and most of what she says is from her imagination and not at all related to the truth. She also does lots of shoplifting in a very sneaky way.
We are currently working with a social worker to address these issues and it will take time but we were told that when a child steals its because they are lacking attention.
My dd gets loads of attention and love from both dh and I but it is obviously not enough for her, she is a very demanding child and needs a lot more than my others and its often draining but we are constantly working on giving her even more because she obviously needs it.
We also give her lots of things to help her with her imagination and try to let her go far with it, costumes, art ect.
Therapy for your child may be a very good idea.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 1:32 pm
I wouldn't consider taking extra nosh from one's own house stealing. If my kids ate nosh when they were not supposed to I would consider that misbehaving perhaps, or disobedience maybe, or basically more of an eating issue. But I would never consider it as theft... its their own home!

Part of my own weight struggle now is that the moment I go on a diet I am just overwhelmed by the fact of not being allowed something and it makes me feel panicky & obsessive. When I'm not on a diet my first thought if there is a yummy peice of cake would be to give it to my kids. When I'm supposed to be dieting I find myself thinking... I want that all for myself where can I hide and eat it? Terrible right?

I could be totally off base but I would reframe this all as a food based issue and figure out how to address it from that angle. Smile [quote]
Back to top

thelioness




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 3:24 pm
Do I understand correctly that ALL of this is centered around getting snacks even when he takes money it is to pay for snacks? So it is really not about stealing and lying but about his hunt for junk food?

If yes, do you have a very healthy home with very limited snacks?

If so, I would approach the entire thing like a food issue. Make him have more control over his food and let him earn money to spend on snacks and relinquish food control so that he can get it out of his system and calm down about it.
Back to top

shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 3:41 pm
thelioness wrote:
Do I understand correctly that ALL of this is centered around getting snacks even when he takes money it is to pay for snacks? So it is really not about stealing and lying but about his hunt for junk food?

If yes, do you have a very healthy home with very limited snacks?

If so, I would approach the entire thing like a food issue. Make him have more control over his food and let him earn money to spend on snacks and relinquish food control so that he can get it out of his system and calm down about it.


I was thinking along the same lines. Do you limit the amount of nash your child is allowed? I have noticed that different children seem to have inborn desires for junk food in different quantities (even from the same home and chinuch). Some are barely interested, some can self-regulate how many unhealthy snacks, and some seem to have an unending desire for junk. I don't really know if there's anything to do about it, except maybe keep a supply of sweet healthy food (like dried fruit, ww cookies, etc.) and also make sure any junk you buy is kept in a totally unaccessible place.

If this isn't a problem, I would definitely go for a chat with a chinuch advisor. I think lying and stealing at this age is just a symptom of a deeper problem (this isn't necessarily anything to do with you), and should not be addressed as a discipline problem.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 3:44 pm
Op here.

Thanks for the validation from some of you - I do feel like somehow I have caused this so thanks for making me feel better

I'd say it is largely about the nash although he has also used this money (which I thought was his) for some toys. Mostly nash though

I don't have a super healthy home, he gets a decent amount of treats. He gets loads from school, which when he brings home I sometimes ask him to save it for shabbos and sometimes let him have it after supper (I figure that I don't want to say no too often and make nash into more of a battle, and also this way he won't just eat it before he brings it home so I have some knowledge about what he's eating)
I'm not saying I embrace nash but I really find it hard to believe that its a response to a lack of it at home/in school. I also don't demonize it b/c I don't want to make it more appealing (stolen waters etc)

To the amother who said nash filled a need b/c she was deprived on many levels, are you talking about things that a person in a normally functioning home would feel? I also thought it could be due a lack of attention, but I really feel like he gets a normal amount. We chat about his day, about things he is interested in. I often tell him I love him, enjoy spending time with him etc. He does well in school academically and socially. He gets along well with his siblings. He is also quite expressive about his feelings (ie. we totally hear it if he feels something in unjust) so it's hard for me to imagine that he is bottling feelings of deprivation up unless it is subconscious? I don;t know though, clearly something is going on.

I didn't think about whether it was a sugar issue as in a biological thing, I guess I can follow that up with our Dr.

To the person who said she wouldn't consider it theft it was taking nash from the house. I also felt this way initially. Ie I was bothered by it but felt that it was still fairly low grade. But taking money from my wallet is beyond that, no? Someone wrote something about punishing every time he steals; I tried that for a while, but I didn't want him to get craftier about hiding the evidence either. Also, I don;t have that many punishments at my disposal! I guess I also felt at some point that I need professional help and I didn;t want to damage the relationship with constant punishments if it was truly an attention thing.


Honestly, I am just very confused. Maybe he wants more nash but I can't give it to him 24/7! Whilst I hope he is not spoiled, he has nice toys, and I try to buy things for him that are the things that kids are collecting these days (collecting cards, rainbow loom, whatever).

Please keep the advice coming, it is very helpful. Either way I see I am right that I need outside help to address this at this point
Back to top

mummiedearest




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 4:24 pm
amother, while I agree that you should take your son to a therapist to figure this issue out, I also suggest you give him a small weekly allowance to do with as he wishes. explain to him that he has complete control over how this money is used, and that he will be allowed to eat whatever nosh he buys when he wants (assuming it is not dairy after meat, etc.). he may just want to control certain things on his own.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 4:34 pm
amother wrote:
To the amother who said nash filled a need b/c she was deprived on many levels, are you talking about things that a person in a normally functioning home would feel? I also thought it could be due a lack of attention, but I really feel like he gets a normal amount. We chat about his day, about things he is interested in. I often tell him I love him, enjoy spending time with him etc. He does well in school academically and socially. He gets along well with his siblings. He is also quite expressive about his feelings (ie. we totally hear it if he feels something in unjust) so it's hard for me to imagine that he is bottling feelings of deprivation up unless it is subconscious? I don;t know though, clearly something is going on.


It's hard to say. There were definitely issues in my home, but it was not totally dysfunctional....but there were issues. Though I could have used more attention than I got, I don't think it was specifically attention I was looking for. I really felt materially deprived. I was the "neb" in the class in terms of clothes, accessories, cutesie items, snacks, etc...my parents were somewhat off socially and my needs weren't understood. I had a sibling who struggled academically so they paid more attention to her material needs (at the school's direction)....but being that I was an A+ student who put myself together as best I could, they felt that was good enough.....I had this void, and I found ways to fill it myself, then ate myself up with guilt, then fell into the trap again....till I finally freed myself.
Back to top

Onisa




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 4:40 pm
Look.
He obviously doesnt like to get caught and punished by parents but he still does it.
So inside of him there is something that makes him more feel far worse than any of your punishments and ect. I think smth inside is tickling he wants nosh to compensate- he gets it however he can.
He can be feeling bad at school.
Can feel jealous about his younger siblings.
Tons of feelings that I can make up that eating him and he wants nosh to get them away.
Go to psycologiest find out what is tramatizing him and what is he lacking.
Hope it will help.
Back to top

eschaya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 9:15 pm
Op - I could have written your post, almost to the T. My son is 7 and has been stealing nosh (and unfortunately other things too) and lying about it for years. We've tried many of the things you have, with no avail. I have been in touch with a child therapist, though ds has not had any active therapy (we are trying, need it to work out insurance and time wise). Wish I had good advice for you, but at least we can emphathize together. I'm interesting in hearing all the responses.
Back to top

PAMOM




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 10:15 pm
This may be a stupid question , but have you asked him why he is stealing? What does he say?
Back to top

its all good




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 12 2014, 11:05 pm
I'd like to recommend a book which really helped me with my relationship with my children.
The 5 Love Languages for Children by Gary Chapman. Basically he writes that there are 5 ways of showing that you love someone. Words of affirmation, touch, spending quality time, doing acts of service and giving them gifts.
We all need a little of each, but every person has 1 primary love language which makes them feel loved by the other person. If you are not giving the other person their primary love language, its not going to help that you are doing the other 4 languages, they need their primary love language to feel loved.
maybe by figuring out his love language- I.e. giving gifts rather than spending time, he will feel satisfied and not feel deprived and by extension, he won't have the need to steal anymore.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Fri, Mar 14 2014, 7:12 am
Op here
Thank you for all your replies. Am digesting them all.

Eschaya I am relieved to have some company! I will keep you posted if we find any success Smile

Thanks to the amother who responded about what caused her to steal. I don't think that applies to my son but, like Onisa also said, there must be something that is comforting about it.

It;s all good - I'll look out for that book. Interesting. I am aware of the concept and he gets little gifts etc every so often but maybe its not enough.

PAmom - I didn't ask about the money per se but when I asked him about the nash taking, he said he gets hungry. I believe that is possible at 5.45am but not when he has just finished a big supper incl fruit and cake after (so he has even had s/t sweet!) Maybe its the thrill, who knows.

mummiedearest - I was actually about to start giving him an allowance. Now I am reconsidering until I speak to a professional. I don't want him to feel rewarded for stealing - like, ok you were taking money from me, I'll give you more? Also, I'm not sure how happy I am about an allowance being for nash!!!

Anyway thank you for all your replies, much appreciated. Guess I better get some professional help now!
Back to top

greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Mar 14 2014, 11:03 am
another vote for

a) not hiding food from any family member

b) giving him a weekly allowance to buy his own nosh

c) reward him with extras for learning the value of honesty & money & not stealing
Back to top
Page 1 of 2 1  2  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Parenting our children -> School age children

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Long black skirt casual- slinky type
by amother
0 Today at 12:04 am View last post
Long shabbos
by amother
2 Yesterday at 9:25 pm View last post
Allegria hotel Long Beach
by amother
2 Yesterday at 5:38 pm View last post
Too long for band falls, such a thing?
by amother
7 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 6:40 pm View last post
Mishloach manos for your husband...advice from recent widow
by amother
27 Sun, Mar 24 2024, 3:04 pm View last post