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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Purim
PSA Don't let your kids sit while pregnant ladies can't.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 3:10 am
The rabbis need to stand up and make an announcement before the reading can start, making sure that everyone knows proper seating etiquette. It needs to be spelled out that pregnant, elderly, and disabled women should get seating priority, and children under 12 should play in the lobby. Shuls can hire a [gentile] to make sure the kids keep the noise down out there.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 4:57 am
Crutches amother here.

I don't let everyone walk all over me, but I do refuse to have a stand up fight when someone refuses to move in the middle of davening. It is not bekavod for either person.

And apparently I was supposed to ask the person in her seat (singular) to move if I had a hope of getting my own, which I hadno right to as I wasn't there RH (no. I was in hospital), and looking after my socially phobic mom who was practically in tears and rarely comes to shul, I wasn't going to ruin her YK for this. The list of demands said in a loud obnoxious voice and the request to leave her alone or her children would get upset and then it would be my responsibility to look after them outside as she was going to daven to HKBH, which obviously I didn't care about as I only turned up to shul so late (well, the fact I was there at all was a big deal).

I guess not all mothers are are obnoxious, she was a visitor and our kehillah are very nice and usually considerste, but it really stood out to me as an example of a properly selfish woman. I guess the fact she was a mom was incidental to her selfishness, but at the time it seemed that it was all about her superiority and rights because she had young children.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 6:56 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
The rabbis need to stand up and make an announcement before the reading can start, making sure that everyone knows proper seating etiquette. It needs to be spelled out that pregnant, elderly, and disabled women should get seating priority, and children under 12 should play in the lobby. Shuls can hire a gentile to make sure the kids keep the noise down out there.


1. Why is this the rabbi's job? The rabbi needs to explain the halachos to do with megilla reading, not teach people how to behave.

2. Children are obligated in hearing the megilla well before aged 12 - probably between about 5-9 depending on the individual child.

3. I just don't think it's so clear cut. We can't always see things on the outside. I'm not talking about the 2 year old occupying the seat (who, IMandlotsofotherpeople'sHO shouldn't be at the megilla at all). I'm talking about the young, healthy woman who came 10 minutes early to make sure she got a seat and now a 70 year old who came just as they were about to start wants her seat (the young woman is 6 weeks pregnant and can barely stand), or the 50 year old with varicose veins, or the 15 year old who is just getting over some (non-infectious) illness and is still weak. And you know what, what about the perfectly healthy 15 year old who came 10 minutes early because she knows she can concentrate on the megilla best when sitting down? If you need a seat, come early and/or bring your own chair.
(I'm not talking RH and YK when people have bought a seat - I just cannot be dan lechaf zechus someone who won't return the seat to the person who paid for it, no matter when they come.)
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 7:50 am
shalhevet wrote:
1. Why is this the rabbi's job? The rabbi needs to explain the halachos to do with megilla reading, not teach people how to behave.

2. Children are obligated in hearing the megilla well before aged 12 - probably between about 5-9 depending on the individual child.

3. I just don't think it's so clear cut. We can't always see things on the outside. I'm not talking about the 2 year old occupying the seat (who, IMandlotsofotherpeople'sHO shouldn't be at the megilla at all). I'm talking about the young, healthy woman who came 10 minutes early to make sure she got a seat and now a 70 year old who came just as they were about to start wants her seat (the young woman is 6 weeks pregnant and can barely stand), or the 50 year old with varicose veins, or the 15 year old who is just getting over some (non-infectious) illness and is still weak. And you know what, what about the perfectly healthy 15 year old who came 10 minutes early because she knows she can concentrate on the megilla best when sitting down? If you need a seat, come early and/or bring your own chair.
(I'm not talking RH and YK when people have bought a seat - I just cannot be dan lechaf zechus someone who won't return the seat to the person who paid for it, no matter when they come.)


I rarely agree with Shalhevet, but I think this is spot on.

I also wonder why the shul doesn't deal with this problem before - Purim time has a lot of women coming. Perhaps they should rope off part of the mens section to make room if the mens section doesn't fill up?
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amother


 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 7:59 am
I went to a Megillah reading that was very crowded, with not enough seats. A 14 year old girl fainted almost at the end.
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groovy1224




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 8:27 am
SplitPea wrote:
Yes it's considered common to do but think of it this way. Family with 8
Kids knows if she does not get her kids a seat they will be running around talking and messing up megilla for everyone. So she gets to the reading VERY early so that she can make sure everyone gets seats. They get settles and are happy. Then just before megilla starts people start pouring in. If she makes her kids get up they will not sit as nicely and disturbed others..... She would probably miss words keeping them quiet and not be yotze.

Honestly I think it's crazy that women's sections have such few seats. You don't see men needing to stand because there are not enligh seats


I still don't think it's okay, even for that woman. If your kids are not old/mature enough to handle megillah reading without their own seats, they don't belong there. There is no place for 'first come first serve' in a shul. We all need to use our middos...priority is given to the elderly, pregnant, sick, etc. Obviously, we need to be dlk'z, since not all disabilities are obvious to the public, and you're right, a woman in her first trimester may need the seat just as much as a woman in her last. But this is a widespread problem, and most of the people who are sitting just choose to not notice the people still standing, so they don't have to sacrifice their own comfort.
Oh and the kids can sit on the floor. Not so easy for a heavily pregnant woman, unless she wants to spend the remainder of her pregnancy there.

In my shul, the rabbi does make announcements every couple of months about this issue (since it happens ate every kiddush), but he can't exactly come around to the women's section and start herding people around. Most of the people that need the mussar speech the most don't even notice that the rabbi's talking Confused

But here's a really novel idea..how about the teachers talk about this with their students? Teach them that before the megillah starts, look around and see if anyone needs their seat, and offer theirs. Offer some sort of prize if the parents report back that they have done so (sort of like the reward system offered for parsha sheets). The only person Morechai didn't rise for was Haman...
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amother


 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 9:07 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
The rabbis need to stand up and make an announcement before the reading can start, making sure that everyone knows proper seating etiquette. It needs to be spelled out that pregnant, elderly, and disabled women should get seating priority, and children under 12 should play in the lobby. Shuls can hire a gentile to make sure the kids keep the noise down out there.

You have to be careful with that one. A few years ago there was an asifa in Lakewood where they made an announcement that all the single girls should stand for the marrieds. I think lots of people took serious offense at that. Like, I'm sorry that I'm not married at 35 and I'm sorry that you're sick and pregnant at 18 but I need to sit too thankyouverymuch.
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chavs




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 9:19 am
Not being able to concentrate without sitting doesn't necessarily have to do with being a child so saying that children who can't sort shouldn't be there doesn't name sense.
My ds has special needs but when is sitting in a chair with me next to him occasionly patting his back and directing him, he can sit beautifully.
I also concentrate better in a chair but whether or not I'm pregnant its important to me that my ds gets to hear the megilla so I will make sure we go and get seats.
We do teach ourchildren to stand up for ppl who are less able but sometime its not the place and the effect on other ppl if he stands (he'd make noise-can't help it) and then the effect on him, means that it's not the right time for him to be considerate to others.
He is old enough to hear megilla though and it has nothing to do with age but South goods difficulties. He is also a huge kids so to big to sit on my lap.

Anyways usually dh and I split up and take our kids to the children's megilla, that solves it all.
Yesterday dd was ill so we couldn't do that and he had to come to the regular reading with me (that was the only way it could work out yesterday).
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Lady Bug




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 9:20 am
Is have an aunt who believes that since she is 50 and I'm 20, it's her job to make me get up for her all the time. I nicely tell her that I need to sit, let her think in pregnant again. If I'm feeling fine, I'll get up for another woman, but I just can't fathom the message these mothers want to send to their kids by letting them "sit" (doesn't last took long) instead of others who need it. They''re the ones who will have to deal with their child's sense of entitlement.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 9:47 am
Lady Bug wrote:
Is have an aunt who believes that since she is 50 and I'm 20, it's her job to make me get up for her all the time. I nicely tell her that I need to sit, let her think in pregnant again. If I'm feeling fine, I'll get up for another woman, but I just can't fathom the message these mothers want to send to their kids by letting them "sit" (doesn't last took long) instead of others who need it. They''re the ones who will have to deal with their child's sense of entitlement.

I once had a classmate who would tell us that her mother tells her not to stand for others. She was specifically talking about a busride and not shul but I imagine that attitude pushed over to shul as well. The thing was, that family was very poor and they took things they spent their money on very seriously. She said her mother told her on a bus she paid for her seat and she has as much right as anyone else who paid and she shouldn't give it up especially since it's not safe for her to stand (the safety issue is the only thing that makes me question if that attitude was universal). I'm not saying that was right but I imagine they were constantly made to feel inferior due to their lack of money that when they actually paid for something they had to hold on tight to their right to have it. I can see why someone like that wouldn't give up a paid seat in shul.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 9:55 am
greenfire wrote:
some people don't even notice these things ... that's how much they don't care or wouldn't bother

That's not really fair. I would definitely give up my seat if I noticed, but I don't always notice. Sometimes there are too many people for me to notice. Sometimes all the people standing are at the back and I'm closer to the front. Sometimes I'm busy dealing with my kids and I don't really notice what's going on around me. It's not because I don't care.
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Lady Bug




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 10:07 am
amother wrote:
I once had a classmate who would tell us that her mother tells her not to stand for others. She was specifically talking about a busride and not shul but I imagine that attitude pushed over to shul as well. The thing was, that family was very poor and they took things they spent their money on very seriously. She said her mother told her on a bus she paid for her seat and she has as much right as anyone else who paid and she shouldn't give it up especially since it's not safe for her to stand (the safety issue is the only thing that makes me question if that attitude was universal). I'm not saying that was right but I imagine they were constantly made to feel inferior due to their lack of money that when they actually paid for something they had to hold on tight to their right to have it. I can see why someone like that wouldn't give up a paid seat in shul.


I wouldn't give up a paid seat in shul or on the bus/train either. We're talking about first-come first-serve seating.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 10:20 am
There was one Purim that I was expecting. I went to shul half an hour early so that I could make sure to have a seat, as I knew I would have a hard time standing. I had another kid at the time, so this was the first time going to shul in this neighborhood. I found a seat and sat down. Two minutes before megillah started, some lady came in and said this is my seat you have to get up. Yes, the seat had a little gold plaque with her name on it, but so did every other seat. And I am SURE that not every person in shul that day goes on a regular basis.

But I stood, because I wasn't going to argue about it. And halfway through, a different pregnant lady offered to take turns sitting with me.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 10:20 am
Yes, people can have invisible problems.
Others who look frailer, may still be ok.


It's also very cultural. Some cultures are into being "strong" and won't even think. In others, a man will beshitta stand for a woman, especially with a child or middle aged or not so hardy looking. Most fall in the middle nowadays.


I have noticed that when visibly pregnant, I hardly get pushed/shoved AND will get a seat or a "pass first in the line" very very very often, including by women.

But I'm not above asking, or yes going to tell the bus driver or the megilla reader or a salesperson or any person "in charge" that I'm not feeling well (this frightens them, last thing they want is a birth during their event Wink )... and leave to their imagination what can happen and what they should do. Generally works well...
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Rutabaga




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 10:55 am
I went to shul (both at night and in the morning) early enough that my daughter and I would each be able to get a seat. As it became more crowded, I warned my daughter that she might have to give up her seat to an adult and come sit on my lap. In the end, she chose to share a chair with a friend rather than sit on my lap.

Our shul was very smart, however. The membership has outgrown the shul, and as it is the woman's section is overcrowded. So for megilla, they ended up running simultaneous readings upstairs and downstairs to alleviate the crowding.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 11:22 am
When I was single, my mother always made sure that we gave up our seats to older women. Till today, I offer my seat if someone older is standing. If your child can't sit through megilla without a seat, don't bring them.

That being said, dh and I took turns going so my young children didnt have to come. I went to a 7:15 am megilla by day. I did however take my 2 year old to the big minyan for Haman to see everyone making noise. Since I had heard megilla already, I stood by the part of my shul that is soundproof and let him watch and left when he was kvetchy.

A regular shabbos though, I take both my toddler and baby to shul for a bit every week. They learn to be good and we go out if they make noise.
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suzyq




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 11:28 am
At my megillah reading, the women's section was completely full so I ended up sitting in the coatroom with several other women. I was VERY impressed when, at the last minute, an older woman came in. Not one, but two, girls probably between the ages of 10 and 12 got up to offer their seats. Not a word was said by their mothers - they did it on their own. Let's teach our children that's the right way to behave, so we don't need to see more threads like this.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 11:33 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
The rabbis need to stand up and make an announcement before the reading can start, making sure that everyone knows proper seating etiquette. It needs to be spelled out that pregnant, elderly, and disabled women should get seating priority, and children under 12 should play in the lobby. Shuls can hire a gentile to make sure the kids keep the noise down out there.


What? No. This is something very basic that a parent should teach a child. It has nothing to do with a rabbi's responsibilities. It really irks me when a rabbi takes on the role of parent to his congregation. If anything, the gabbai can remind everyone to be considerate of those who have a hard time standing. Or better yet, actually have a plan to prevent a standing room crowd in the first place.
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Butterfly




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 1:10 pm
suzyq wrote:
At my megillah reading, the women's section was completely full so I ended up sitting in the coatroom with several other women. I was VERY impressed when, at the last minute, an older woman came in. Not one, but two, girls probably between the ages of 10 and 12 got up to offer their seats. Not a word was said by their mothers - they did it on their own. Let's teach our children that's the right way to behave, so we don't need to see more threads like this.


As I'm reading this thread my heart is saddened with emotions!!

"What has become of this generation??!! And even more so with the parents of this generation who encourage their kids to have no compassion for the elderly or disabled or preggos?!!

Unless a younger child or woman has a genuine health reason (headache or other ache included that makes it difficult for her to stand) there is no excuse, in my books, to stay seated so cold hearted.

I'm not speaking for myself, though I am an old timer grandmother for many many years now B"H.
I travel plenty. My heart goes out to anyone elderly or preggo or holding a baby or young child in her arms standing, Jewish or not, while traveling on the bus or subway. I ALWAYS stand up for someone who I suspect might need the seat more than I do or even as much as I do even when I feel somewhat tired and fatigued and my knees are hurting (due to torn cartridge).

Needless to say that having 8 children sitting comfortably by megilla while preggos holding their children or elderly standing, and not doing anything about it is totally absurd. The kids could have double seated or pushed two chairs together and have three kids sit in two chairs. Etc. etc. etc. etc. !!!!!

Where's chinuch nowadays?!!!
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amother


 

Post Mon, Mar 17 2014, 1:12 pm
OP here: The problem was children were sitting while older (mid 70s), heavy disabled with a visible hip problem and special shoes (mid 50s) and heavily pregnant woman were standing.

There were specifically 2 large families with children in descending order sitting in the seats. I assume all the children are not special needs as the mothers were not acting as minders and the children attend regular schools. Without the younger children sitting in seats all the ladies I mentioned in the first paragraph could have sat.

My husband and son inform me that men offered to vacate their seat for them. I am proud to say that my son and husband choose to stand instead of displacing them.

It is outrageous that the women act like this. I spoke to the Rabbi regarding this situation and he is going to make sure it doesn't happen next year. I took a photo of this, but I didn't have to show it to the Rabbi.

I did not arrive early because the reading was across town. We raced there after Havdalah.

Maybe the shuls should set aside sitting like they do on the buses for pregnant, disabled and elderly.
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