DEAR NEIGHBOR, | Imamother

Odelyah

Tue, Mar 18 2014, 2:55 pm

I was reading this thread and was a little surprised at some of the very strong negative reactions, compared to other threads where there were concerns of possible abuse. OP, I want to give a little friendly advice-- I would have PM'd you to tell you privately but I can't since you posted anonymously. I think that your "texting" style of writing (abbreviations, words misspelled) gives off an impression of immaturity. I understand it's generational, but I think it might make you seem very young and immature even to women just a few years older than you, without you realizing it. I think you mean well and I hope you don't find my suggestion insulting.

Oh, and mazel tov on your recent marriage! Smile

All the best,
Odelyah

amother

Tue, Mar 18 2014, 4:18 pm

Odelyah wrote:

Huh??
I'm the Bubby amother that tried to give the OP some support and chizuk a couple of posts ago. I just reread her original post, to confirm what I remembered, about the way it was written. I think that her style of writing was at the very least, typical of that of most of the posts on Imamother - if not actually a lot more articulate than many. Though I myself don't use it, texting style, as well as misspelling, and definitely abbreviations, are very common here. (I think that a lot of the misspellings, are typo's; and I, too, find the constant use of uncommon abbreviations, annoying.)
In any case, I don't think OP had any glaring writing errors in the post that started this thread; and I doubt that the over-reaction, and in some cases mean spiritedness of her critics, has anything to do with her style of writing.

Odelyah

Tue, Mar 18 2014, 4:34 pm

Then to what do you attribute it? I wasn't sure if that was part of it, but I thought her style of writing perhaps contributed to the impression of her as someone young and inexperienced acting like a know-it-all. Otherwise it's really hard for me to understand all the negativity. And I know her style is not uncommon, but I think when someone asks for a recipe and writes "ure" and "u" it doesn't make much of a difference, but when someone sounds holier-than-thou and immature at the same time, it's a bad combination. (Just a theory. Don't know if I'm right.)

And OP, I thought of that too. So I checked again, and your original post definitely had less of it than your subsequent ones, but you still wrote "thanx" and "ure" and a few other misspellings. Sorry to be picky! Smile

Grandma 1

Tue, Mar 18 2014, 5:20 pm

amother wrote:

Dear OP!
I hope that you're not second guessing yourself about your original post - especially after receiving so many indignant, and defensive replies. I think that you wrote from the heart, and didn't come off to me, as attacking every overwhelmed and exasperated mother, who occasionally lost it, and yelled at their children.
As a fellow emotionally abused child, who is now a mother, and Bubby, of k"h a large brood of grandchildren from babies to a twenty-one year old, I wish that someone had written such a letter to my own mother. Though I was blessed with a good adult life, when I look back on my childhood, I am again that frightened lonely little girl, always being put down, and feeling unloved, and unloveable. Despite the healing help and love of a wonderful husband, and the nachas from my family, my childhood has taken its toll on my self esteem; and because of it, I know that I haven't reached anywhere near my full potential.
It scares me to see how many people here have been so quick to jump at you for expressing your sensitive feelings. I'm sure there are some that innocently misunderstand where you're coming from, but I'm also afraid that there are others who are in denial, and don't want to really think about their own actions.

Hi Odelyah,
As I expressed in the last paragraph of my previous post above, I attribute the over-reaction to one of two things: Either 1) some people misunderstood where she was coming from, and thought she was coming off as "holier than thou", (as you said), and took offense that she was criticizing any mother who got exasperated, and raised her voice once in a while. They ignored the fact that OP emphasized over and over that she was talking about an "over the top" situation where the mother was constantly screaming and berating her children, on a daily basis. Or
2) Sadly, for some people, this criticism, sensitively written as it was, in my opinion, hit too close to home; and rather than to own up to it, and take OP's words to heart - they sought to justify themselves by putting OP down, sometimes in a nasty and dismissive way.

granolamom

Tue, Mar 18 2014, 6:38 pm

amother wrote:

I'm honestly shocked that everyone seems to think losing it is ok. If you can't handle the kids don't have them. Simple. Yes, I know I sound all judgemental but guess what? I am. Not about people who occasionally lose it or even about people who lose it more than they should but about people who think it's ok. Losing it is one thing but it's important to know that while it may be normal/understandable it is NOT ok and you have to work on improving in that area. OP made it clear she is not talking about a rare occurence. I honestly don't know many people that lose it on their kids regularly and if I heard what OP says she heard I'd be horrified. It's not ok to do that to a child.

um, ok. that's great for the kids you dont already have. it would be a hard sell to convince me that the child who is already here would be better off in foster care. I do know people who regularly scream and lose it on their kids, and who probably 'shouldnt have kids' if we may be so presumptuous to override G-ds cheshbon, and you know what? no, their kids are not being raised the way I would like to be raised but neither would they be better off in the foster care system.

granolamom

Tue, Mar 18 2014, 6:55 pm

I reacted as I did to OP's original post because it sounded judgemental to me. the whole 'dear neighbor...I dont really know you but I could love your kids better than you are doing right now'.
its less than likely that the OP's neighbor will read this letter here, so I failed to see the tachlis, other than to let us know what she thinks of her neighbors less than stellar parenting. a bit presumptuous. am I defensive? yes. I yell alot. I know its not great. I work at it constantly and have come a long way. Could you have written that letter about me? sure. do you have a clue that it is a milliion times more trying to raise some of my kids than the average kids? do you have any idea that I'm doing a pretty good job overall? that most parents with my kids wouldnt have stuck by them the way I have? that my faults are also my strengths? hearing me scream 'get to bed already' doesnt let you know about the demons I've tamed for my children that day which have left me drained.
you want to help your neighbors kids out, ditch the condescension and invite the family to shabbos lunch and then offer to take the kids to the park in the afternoon.
I reacted this way because I get the knowing looks of 'perfect parents' and yet, no one ever really made good on their offers to help me out with child care so I could maybe recharge or get some respite. lots of big talkers out there.
could be, OP, that you are different and will help these kids practically. could be you didnt mean your post the way I took it. so I apologize if I offended you with my response.

dr. pepper

Tue, Mar 18 2014, 7:57 pm

gold21 wrote:

No, I reacted to your post because it came across as very condescending- not because it "hit a raw nerve". Read other posts of mine here, I often react to condescending or nasty or unfair posts, even if has no shaychus to me at all. You DO come across as condescending.

Again, to you.

To me, there was not one smidgen (I've always wanted to use that word!) of condescending tone.
I thought is was plaintive, heartfelt and a plea for understanding based off of her personal experience she has alluded to having as a child.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and take on the conversation, but that does not give you the right to assume it is the same across the board.

greenfire

Tue, Mar 18 2014, 7:57 pm

eschaya wrote:

I would have had a lot to say to my current self had I met her back then, but my current self would tell that self-righteous, ignorant fool of inexperience to shut up, grow up, and wait until she knows what real life and real child-rearing is all about. In all likelihood, the mother next door is trying hard to be a good mother, but at the same time is faced with stresses and experiences that try her and grind her to the floor. She probably feels guilty at night for not being the mother she wishes she could be, but promises herself that the next day will be better.

I really admire how forthright you are

Odelyah

Tue, Mar 18 2014, 8:44 pm

Grandma 1 wrote:

Hi Grandma Smile

I agree with you. I just thought that regarding your first explanation, people were perhaps quicker to not take her seriously and hear what she actually said, because she sounded immature. But I don't know. Either way I hope she finds a way to be helpful.

All the best,
Odelyah

Grandma 1

Tue, Mar 18 2014, 9:23 pm

dr. pepper wrote:

dr. pepper,
I really like your description of OP's "letter" to her neighbor. That's exactly the way I see it.

gold21

Tue, Mar 18 2014, 9:34 pm

dr. pepper wrote:

K, so this is a post I would take 100 percent seriously: (it's made up, it's just a take-off on OP's original post):

I don't know what to do. I live in an apartment with very thin walls. I often hear my neighbor yelling at her kids. I was raised in an abusive home, so I don't know where to draw the line between "normal yelling" and "abusive yelling". I am concerned that this mom is being abusive, it makes me sad and worried and brings back very bad memories. Crying

So, how much yelling is normal? I myself am not a mom yet so I don't really have a gage as to what is normal and what is not. All I know is that I won't stand for child abuse, I will do whatever I need to put a stop to it because I've been through too much abuse to stick my head in the sand and ignore this. Kids should never be verbally abused, and it's not gonna happen on my watch.

I turn to you moms and ask- What is normal yelling and what is abusive yelling? Is yelling ever okay? Please advise.

gold21

Tue, Mar 18 2014, 9:43 pm

Had the OP written what I just wrote, I would then respond:

Dear OP,

Good for you for taking this issue seriously. Neighbors are a very important key in preventing child abuse (may it never happen).

How often do you hear the mom yelling? Is she yelling pretty much all day? Or is it just a couple of times a day? Have you seen any positive interactions between the mom and the kids? What's the father like? Is it one specific kid that she's always yelling at or is it just random? Have you ever heard emotionally abusive statements like "you jerk, you good for nothing"? Have you any reason to suspect physical abuse chas vesholom?

Generally speaking, as long as most of the interactions between Mom and Kids are positive, a mom raising her voice here and there will not affect the kids in a bad way. However, if the mom is always screaming at the kids, then yes I would worry.

In any case, good for you, and I'm so very sorry about your abusive childhood. HUGS.

amother

Tue, Mar 18 2014, 9:50 pm

Hi gold. Thank you for gearing me in what WOULD BE the good thing to say, at least in ure eyes.
Difference is that I didn't need advice as much as I wanted to raise awareness. Had I wanted advice saying what you said would have been perfect!
I know what abuse looks like and know the difference. I didn't need help with that.
Since I also knew I wasnt in the position to do much I hoped I can make others aware of how it feels...
Thanx!