Is my friend lying?

amother

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 7:58 pm

A close friend of mine is doing construction, she is afraid of ayin harah, so when people ask her what she is doing, she tells them that she is taking down the wall in between the living room and dining room, when in fact, she is completely redo-ing her kitchen and bathroom and other work in the house. Is this a lie? IMO, she is lying to her friends/relatives and when they find out the truth eventually, they will lose trust in her, so she is doing more harm than good. In her opinion, she is not lying, because she is in fact taking down the wall in between living room and dining room, so she is stating a truth. I think a lie includes intentionally leaving out information thereby misleading people. What do you think?

mirror

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 8:03 pm

I totally agree with her for lying.

Everybody is crazy jealous of other people, and yes, she would get an ayin hora from telling everyone.

The way an ayin hora works: Someone gets jealous and complains, and Hashem looks at the person and says, "Does so and so really deserve this?". I know of one person who redid their house and got divorced afterwards, and I believe Ayin Hora was the cause.

amother

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 8:06 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

Still kind of confuses me if these people will find out eventually, wouldn't they just be jealous then (but maybe jealous and hurt), and wouldn't it be an ayin hora then? Wouldn't a person still have to worry about ayin hora after the fact, like maybe ch"v it could be taken away from them, when would it end?

Also, I told her it could be she is lying for privacy, but I still felt it was a lie, she insists that she is being truthfull. Curious if other people consider this a lie or not.

amother

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 8:12 pm

I also kinda do that.... whenever we need to do a job my dh wants to "do it right" even if we can't really afford it, and ends up adding stuff that hadn't been planned cause it makes sense to him to do it all at once. So we end up with credit card expenses that we shouldn't have and I feel embarrassed because I feel like my friends would think well how can they afford this? So I totally minimize it. And then I feel dishonest & guilty like I'm hiding something. So its not just ayin harah but also embarrassment.

amother

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 8:18 pm

monseychick wrote:

Your friend is a big tzadekes... I would just say its none of your D**** business...

Figured I would get responses like this. That's fine. It sort of becomes my business when people ask me what she is doing (because this is happening), and she expects me to perpetuate what I consider a lie and tell them that she is breaking down the wall between the living room and dining room. She is a good friend and will sometimes listen to my advice. If I get a strong response here that she is lying then I would go back and tell her that and she may change her mind. She is convinced that she is not lying.

penguin

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 8:30 pm

Well, it's actually nobody's business what she's doing, including family (IMHO). So if they ask her, she is allowed to say, "Oh, just a little repair."

If she's not specifically saying "ONLY taking down a wall" what is wrong? Well, of course, when you take down a wall you have to repair the floor in between, sometimes you can't match it, so you have to re-do the entire floor and .... as I said, it's really nobody's business!

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 8:34 pm

No, what was meant was not "why is it your business, OP?" but "why is it those other people's business?"

I don't know how close your community is, but a certain amount of fudging and wiggling is allowed when the subject at hand DOES NOT AFFECT THE QUESTIONER.

If it affects the questioner, then you talk straight.

If the answer to the question won't impact the questioner one little bit, and it isn't somebody getting married (that's a public event: it means you can't flirt with the principals anymore) then one has a right to get a little vague.

Babies are public information because it's a mitzvah to go to the bris, and bring food.

Lots of things have public ramifications, so you tell truths.

I can't see what the "need to know" is here.

You don't flatly refuse to talk, or snarl them off, you fudge tactfully, and change the subject. You are "making some repairs" or "taking a wall down" and let it go.

Anybody who astutely declares, as a good anthropologist, "Lands Sakes! This isn't the kitchen sink you had before!" can be answered "the other one broke. Want some coffee?"

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Wed, Mar 19 2014, 8:37 pm; edited 2 times in total

morah

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 8:35 pm

amother wrote:

Yes, she's lying. No, it's not wrong in this situation. The Torah does not hold like Immanuel Kant- it's ok to lie in certain situations. Now, reasonable minds can differ as to whether or not it's a good idea- after all, at least some of those people being told its some minor fix-it are going to come by and see that was in fact not the case. She can deal with the fallout then.

Also just a bit curious about your feelings at being put in a position to lie- would you feel the same if she were pregnant and asking you to keep quiet till she was ready to tell others? This is also a matter of privacy till she feels ready to reveal it.

amother

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 8:41 pm

amother wrote:

Tell them they have to ask your friend. This is my standard response when people ask me questions that none of their business about other people. I don't understand why people feel the need to pry so much.

I also minimize what I spend on things because of jealousy. I don't tell the full story. IMO it is not lying.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 8:42 pm

Wait, people are quizzing OP about another person's renovations?

Are you her receptionist?

Are you her PR officer?

Do they have a lien against her?

Who asks A what B is doing with B's house? The only reasonable answer to that is "er, huh? What? I have no idea." If you want to know, find the courage to ask B herself. That might earn you a glazed but beady, irritated, eyeball.

OP's face should express a Hmmph. She has enough to do supervising her own house without keeping track of the dust bunnies in everybody else's.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Wed, Mar 19 2014, 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 8:43 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Dolly, I hear you, but we're not talking about a new sink, rather taking out all of the cabinets/appliances (more like a gut job), and in terms of friends it's neighbors that are a few doors down, visit each other, and will see the finished product shortly after it's done.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 8:45 pm

Then you, or she, has, or have, a problem.

I have no ideas.

She can stammer "my husband made me. I told him it was crazy, but he got nuts."

Maybe there is a time to trust in Hashem and not worry about AH?

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Wed, Mar 19 2014, 9:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

chocolate fondue

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 8:52 pm

amother wrote:

So for now, when you are asked what's A doing in her house, you can smile sweetly and say 'She told me she's taking down a wall. If you want more details, why don't you ask A?'
And when her neighbours see the renovations and say 'I thought you were taking down a wall?!' she can smile sweetly and say 'We did. we also did some other stuff at the same time. Would you like a hot drink?'

amother

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 9:06 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

It's not being asked out of nosiness, we are all a bunch of close friends. It's like if someone moves and then you ask where are they moving to, is that nosy? I think these questions are totally fine amongst friends.

zaq

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 9:15 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

No, what was meant was not "why is it your business, OP?" but "why is it those other people's business?"... Anybody who astutely declares, as a good anthropologist, "Lands Sakes! This isn't the kitchen sink you had before!" can be answered "the other one broke. Want some coffee?"

Like this post.
One has no obligation to answer people who ask questions that are none of their business. OP's friend is in fact taking down a wall. That's not ALL she's doing, but then she is not under oath to tell the whole truth.

More troubling to me than your friend's veracity or lack thereof, is why you feel free to discuss her affairs with others at all. Unless you are your friend's press secretary, these people have no business asking you, and you have no business answering them. When they ask, smile sweetly and say "I'm sorry, Mindy's building plans are none of my business. If they're your business, ask Mindy."

amother

Wed, Mar 19 2014, 9:19 pm

chocolate fondue wrote:

OP here. I would not say "She told me she's taking down a wall" since I consider that a lie based on my definition that a lie includes intentionally leaving out details. Also, I am trying to advise my friend I guess based on my own feelings which are that I personally would feel less close to a friend if they did this to me. I have a friend in Conneticut that could have not told me when she did work on her house cuz I would never see it, but since it was a big part of her life then she mentioned it to me as it was ongoing. That's how I think a friendship should be.