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Is my friend lying?
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SplitPea




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 5:20 am
amother wrote:
OP here. I would not say "She told me she's taking down a wall" since I consider that a lie based on my definition that a lie includes intentionally leaving out details. Also, I am trying to advise my friend I guess based on my own feelings which are that I personally would feel less close to a friend if they did this to me. I have a friend in Conneticut that could have not told me when she did work on her house cuz I would never see it, but since it was a big part of her life then she mentioned it to me as it was ongoing. That's how I think a friendship should be.


I think you need to look into your definition of a lie.
Maybe even ask a rav. We "lie" all the time. Where are you going "out for a walk" she left out the "to the Mikvah part" so it's a lie?

NO ONE has a right to know detials of another's life. She is telling the truth that she is taking down a wall why is it anyone's right to know more? Or even know that?

Honestly go talk to a rav. They will tell you you are engaging in gossip and Not judgeing her favorably and YOU are in the wrong not her.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 6:44 am
SplitPea wrote:
I think you need to look into your definition of a lie.
Maybe even ask a rav. We "lie" all the time. Where are you going "out for a walk" she left out the "to the Mikvah part" so it's a lie?

NO ONE has a right to know detials of another's life. She is telling the truth that she is taking down a wall why is it anyone's right to know more? Or even know that?

Honestly go talk to a rav. They will tell you you are engaging in gossip and Not judgeing her favorably and YOU are in the wrong not her.


OP here. I don't think you can equate a trip to the mikvah with a construction job. I guess there are a lot of people out there that don't see this as an issue at all, so I must be wrong and most people won't care when they find out later. I think I can go back to my friend and tell her that I changed my mind, she is right, she can continue to tell people she is taking down a wall even though she's doing much more, bec. chances are they lie (or leave out information) all the time too, so they won't be upset at her. To the poster who said my friend in Conneticut didn't have to tell me about her construction, you are right, but we speak at least once a week, so if she wouldn't have been telling me about it (out of fear of ayin hara I guess?) then I would have been offended. Interesting that one poster thought I was young, I'm actually not so young, but based on posters here I am immature. Also, just so people understand, I am not going to pressure my friend on an ongoing basis, but if I feel that they are making a mistake then I point it out (maybe too strongly) that I think they are hurting themselves more than helping. It is really because I care. I would not want her to lose or weaken friendships over something so silly bec. everyone will see the finished product anyway. I'm still not sure I understand why there is no concept of ayin harah on the finished product, personally, I think it makes more sense to be jealous of a nice new kitchen then a house undergoing construction Smile
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 6:49 am
shlomit wrote:
I'm just not sure about this Ayin hora thing. I know you should not make a show of your stuff and not brag to avoid ayin hora. But I wouldn't go to that far as hiding stuff that is obvious. This is just paranoid and obnoxious. She have to trust Hashem and just say something like. "We are renovating the kitchen etc. ". people will be jealous or not anyway and Chazal said if you don't believe in ayin hora it doesn't effect you. Somebody did that to me. They kind of avoided a question and I realized its because they were afraid of ayin hora. It made me feel like they think I am jealous of their money and want them to loose it. It was insulted. I really am happy for them even though I can't afford the same. I would feel better if they told me what is obvious and not insult me by acting weird. It is not noisy to ask If something is happening in front of your face. It is rude not to be interested. But you are not her and you should just say : she is doing something idk Or something else which means that you don't know. It's not a lie you really don't know exactly what she is doing.


Here's an example of someone that was hurt. Is it better to avoid ayin harah and hurt other people? I guess that would have to be a spinoff to this thread.
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Learning




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 9:06 am
It is not even avoiding Ayin hara. It is just postponing it. And I don't think this is the meaning of being tznius. As I wrote before tznius means not showing what is hidden like if your son is the best in class. Nobody out of the class knows about it and it is better not to show off and tell every body else. But if the trucks are in front if your house it is not hidden so just be polite and even though you are scared say we are renovating. As for the friend. "I don't know. I saw the trucks I wonder what EXACTLY she is doing". It's not a lie. You don't know every detail and probably she is doing more than she told you.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 9:21 am
I don't get the point of arguing whether it's "their business" or not when the whole problem is that "they" are going to find out either way.

Like, I could argue that it's not my friend's business that I'm wearing a new hair covering any more than it would be her business if I'm wearing a new bra, but it would still be weird to try to hide something so obvious.

I agree with OP that her friend's approach could cause hurt feelings. Maybe when people find out the extent of the work she had done she'll tell them "we weren't sure how much we were going to do" or "I wanted it to be a surprise," whatever, and nobody will care - but if it's obvious that she was worried about ayin hara (I.e., that she thought her friends would be jealous instead of happy for her), that could hurt.

But OP, since you've already pointed out the obvious (that she can't hide the extent of the house work forever), and she doesn't agree, let it go.
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penguin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 9:54 am
First, if one is worried about ayin hora they probably try not to be too 'over-the-top', at least I hope so.

Second, people finding out when it's all done is different.

Because if you're close w/ s/o who's doing renovations, you're going to hear about how they went to choose the tile, they found a good close-out, how they can't decide between the tumbled marble shower stall with custom shelf and the oil-rubbed bronze fixtures which cost just a leetle more, but look so put-together....

and all the while you're thinking, I wish I could just change my leaky faucet....etc....

But once it's done, you don't know what they spent (unless they ended up going with the gold-plated faucets, although really, would you know they weren't brass? I wouldn't, maybe you would...) so it just is what it is, and you wish them many happy years with their new addition.

So yeah, I do see her point.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 10:04 am
amother wrote:
OP here. I don't think you can equate a trip to the mikvah with a construction job. I guess there are a lot of people out there that don't see this as an issue at all, so I must be wrong and most people won't care when they find out later. I think I can go back to my friend and tell her that I changed my mind, she is right, she can continue to tell people she is taking down a wall even though she's doing much more, bec. chances are they lie (or leave out information) all the time too, so they won't be upset at her. To the poster who said my friend in Conneticut didn't have to tell me about her construction, you are right, but we speak at least once a week, so if she wouldn't have been telling me about it (out of fear of ayin hara I guess?) then I would have been offended. Interesting that one poster thought I was young, I'm actually not so young, but based on posters here I am immature. Also, just so people understand, I am not going to pressure my friend on an ongoing basis, but if I feel that they are making a mistake then I point it out (maybe too strongly) that I think they are hurting themselves more than helping. It is really because I care. I would not want her to lose or weaken friendships over something so silly bec. everyone will see the finished product anyway. I'm still not sure I understand why there is no concept of ayin harah on the finished product, personally, I think it makes more sense to be jealous of a nice new kitchen then a house undergoing construction Smile


I don't fear ayin harah, but I don't tell anyone exactly what I am doing or what I am buying because of all the prying that comes with it. Ayin harah is an excuse. It is none of their business.

I have been asked how much things cost and where did I get the money to pay for it over and over and over again. People feel they have the right to ask the most obnoxious questions. The question I hate the most is is it your money or your husband's? When I answer it is our money that is only an invitation to continue.

They also want me to buy from their nephew, etc. They also feel it is an invitation to solicit from me. I had one friend quote me $800 for services for a certain project. This is her standard fee. When she saw the construction, she raised her price to $5000 and told me I could afford it. I gave another friend a several hundred towards a simcha she was making and she told me I could afford more. It is not anyone's business what I can or can't afford.

I wore a pretty ring and 6 people asked me how much did it cost the first day. I have never been subjected to such scrutiny as I am from the frum community.

With finished construction there is less of an opportunity for others to try to insert themselves in the process.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 10:13 am
amother wrote:
I don't fear ayin harah, but I don't tell anyone exactly what I am doing or what I am buying because of all the prying that comes with it. Ayin harah is an excuse. It is none of their business.

I have been asked how much things cost and where did I get the money to pay for it over and over and over again. People feel they have the right to ask the most obnoxious questions. The question I hate the most is is it your money or your husband's? When I answer it is our money that is only an invitation to continue.

They also want me to buy from their nephew, etc. They also feel it is an invitation to solicit from me. I had one friend quote me $800 for services for a certain project. This is her standard fee. When she saw the construction, she raised her price to $5000 and told me I could afford it. I gave another friend a several hundred towards a simcha she was making and she told me I could afford more. It is not anyone's business what I can or can't afford.

I wore a pretty ring and 6 people asked me how much did it cost the first day. I have never been subjected to such scrutiny as I am from the frum community.

With finished construction there is less of an opportunity for others to try to insert themselves in the process.


Are you "Mindy"? (The one op is taking about?)
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Learning




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 11:46 am
penguin wrote:
First, if one is worried about ayin hora they probably try not to be too 'over-the-top', at least I hope so.

Second, people finding out when it's all done is different.

Because if you're close w/ s/o who's doing renovations, you're going to hear about how they went to choose the tile, they found a good close-out, how they can't decide between the tumbled marble shower stall with custom shelf and the oil-rubbed bronze fixtures which cost just a leetle more, but look so put-together....

and all the while you're thinking, I wish I could just change my leaky faucet....etc....

But once it's done, you don't know what they spent (unless they ended up going with the gold-plated faucets, although really, would you know they weren't brass? I wouldn't, maybe you would...) so it just is what it is, and you wish them many happy years with their new addition.

So yeah, I do see her point.

You have to say something that is true. You can't say we are taking down a wall when you are renovating. It's plain lie. You can downplay it. Or you can just ignore if you want to be rude or think they won't notice. Or you can say part of the truth. I don't know if it's considered not true but some people won't like it.
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Shana_H




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 1:14 pm
WHY DOESN'T EVERYONE JUST MIND THEIR OWN BLOODY BUSINESS!
IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHAT YOUR BEST FRIEND IS DOING TO HER HOUSE!
IT'S NOT YOUR PLACE TO TELL EVERY TOM, d!ck AND HARRY WHAT YOUR FRIEND IS DOING TO HER HOUSE!
I'M HORRIFIED THAT THIS IS EVEN A QUESTION!
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 1:16 pm
shlomit wrote:
You have to say something that is true. You can't say we are taking down a wall when you are renovating. It's plain lie. You can downplay it. Or you can just ignore if you want to be rude or think they won't notice. Or you can say part of the truth. I don't know if it's considered not true but some people won't like it.


Taking down the wall is part of the truth. It is not a lie.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 1:49 pm
Shana_H wrote:
WHY DOESN'T EVERYONE JUST MIND THEIR OWN BLOODY BUSINESS!
IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHAT YOUR BEST FRIEND IS DOING TO HER HOUSE!
IT'S NOT YOUR PLACE TO TELL EVERY TOM, d!ck AND HARRY WHAT YOUR FRIEND IS DOING TO HER HOUSE!
I'M HORRIFIED THAT THIS IS EVEN A QUESTION!


Really? How do you define close friends? I wasn't talking about Tom, d!ck and Harry - they would most likely not even ask about the construction. I'm talking about close friends. The thought that she suspects her close friends will give an ayin harah is offensive IMO (although not to a lot of people posting here).
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 2:05 pm
amother wrote:
Really? How do you define close friends? I wasn't talking about Tom, d!ck and Harry - they would most likely not even ask about the construction. I'm talking about close friends. The thought that she suspects her close friends will give an ayin harah is offensive IMO (although not to a lot of people posting here).


I dunno. Her close friends sound pretty judgmental and entitled.
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invisiblecircus




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 3:28 pm
I don't think she is lying if she says she is pulling down a wall when in fact she is pulling down a wall PLUS a load of other things but I think the whole topic is really strange.

Firstly, if it is ayin hara she is worried about, is she going to stop all of you from going into her house ever again just so you won't see what she had done and be jealous?

Secondly, I think it is perfectly normal to leave out some details about things like this. We are planning some work and I don't think my friends are being nosy if they ask what but I tell them something like "we're having some extra wall units put in the kitchen and a new bed and bookshelf in dd's room." It would be too long and boring to talk about the new worktop, lighting, shelf and table in the kitchen and how we're having the sofa in dd's room re-covered. People are not so intensely interested that they're going to come to our house afterwards and say "Woah! You didn't mention the new table lamp!"

Thirdly, why are your other friends asking you about this instead of the person it concerns? Why can't you say "she said she is having a wall pulled down." You aren't lying, that IS what she said.

Finally, I don't understand why people are saying everyone should mind their own business about what is going on in each other's lives. Generally I might agree but between friends you might be left with nothing to talk about if you stick to that rule.

Someone mentions they're going on holiday. It is none of my business where but if it is such a big secret why mention it? It is not top secret information.

Someone's brother got engaged. It is none of my business who to but the friend might even find it odd if I don't ask, no?
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shlomitsmum




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 20 2014, 5:44 pm
she is not lying.... she is being tzanua and not obnoxious .

people can be sick jealous and nosey and she decides who and how much she shares . be DLZ to her for all you know is her DH who wants to keep things private ,getting loose with info can hurt your friends SB.

your issue reminds me of a friends case:

My friend was given $ as a gift from a grandparent to do her kitchen (no freedom to do anything else with the funds) you know a our way or zero option from the relative ,her dh wanted it quiet too cause he was a tad embarrassed HE was not the source of the reno .

Just like in your case she wanted to keep it quiet but .... a "friend" spilled the details to others and my friend was denied tuition relief as a result .

As the board got the tip and held the reno against them ! so your friend may have good reasons not to tell everyone ALL the details .
Real friends are happy for you and accept whatever you want to share trusting that you have good reasons for doing what you do.

Please consult your rav and do not endanger your friends assets
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