Talking to men- the opposite end of the spectrum

Abby2

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 7:21 am

I was following the post concerning the article from aish and the woman who cheated on her DH. If you too were following you would have noticed that I don't really advocate socialising between the genders.

In saying that, I was wondering what you all think of this.
When I was in seminary I did chessed for a very yeshivish, kollel family. I went once a week and really helped out a lot. Before pesach I made extra trips and was there more often then usual.

Whilst I was there, the lady's dh came home as it was bein hazmanim and he was helping with pesach cleaning. Well, he didnt even acknowledge my existence. I could habe been invisible. He didnt greet me, look at me or even in my direction, or thank me for the help.

I consider myself quite open minded, if a man wants to look down when I walk past, doesnt bother me and I am not offended. But to disregard a human being who is in your house and helping you, I found it very disturbing till today. Hence this post.

Am I being to closed minded and not respectful to his idea of shmiras einayim? Or was it just plain rude.
I am sure there are ways of greeting without looking or some sort of solution?

I guess this is just a vent from yrs of overthinking.

smss

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 7:29 am

I tend not to get offended by that kind of a thing because I know it's nothing personal and not done out of rudeness. just today I was in the elevator, the doors opened at one of the floors and a man was waiting there, when he saw there was a woman inside (me) he turned around and took the stairs instead. it happens to me every so often and I don't bat an eye. same when men don't look at me while talking to me, etc. I understand that it's coming from wanting to be extremely strict and beyond the letter of the law in this area, and I don't waste my time getting offended at something that had nothing to do with me and everything to do with them.

Simple1

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 7:35 am

Another possibility is that he could be socially awkward or socially unaware. Like he may manage being OK talking to men, but when it comes to situations he's not used to, this could make some men nervous of what to say, how much to say etc.

Last edited by Simple1 on Wed, Mar 26 2014, 7:37 am; edited 1 time in total

smss

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 7:37 am

Simple1 wrote:

Another possibility is that he could be socially awkward or socially unaware.

yes, I do think that many men who take not talking to women to the extreme justify it as being extra frum but are really doing it because they're shy. not all, though.

Happy18

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 7:44 am

I think its plain rude. However, I grew up MO as did DH so we have different expectations. I guess if you grow up in such a separate society it could be considered provocative to some to even acknowledge members of the opposite gender. I try not to be offended when men won't acknowledge my presence, I just try to think of it as their problem, not mine.

DrMom

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 7:47 am

I find that behavior to be very rude and lacking in derech eretz. If I am helping you out, a lot, then a simple acknowledgement of my existence is not too much to ask.

I especially annoyed when someone who would not otherwise acknowledge my existence comes to my door to ask for donations and suddenly, voilà! I am a person worthy of acknowledgement again.

smilingmom

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 7:56 am

It could also be what he thought you expected him not to acknowledge you.
I do not talk to frum men. If I am walking down the street and one of my frum neighbors says hello, I nod my head, otherwise, I ignore them.
If they are visiting in my house, I give minimal greetings but don't converse.
I guess I am just projecting my DH standards to other frum men.
If they engage me in tachlis conversation, of course I talk as much as I need to.

Don't get me wrong, if I see a male non Jewish colleague, I haven't seen in a long time, I will definetly return a hug or kiss that he initiates, as well as any I may get from my relatives.
I also shake hands with men. I just believe that frummies have to abide by a different standard.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 7:58 am

On the other post you mentioned, I also wrote that although I do socialize with men, I completely agree that the chareidi way of keeping a distance is the ideal. However, the behavior you described is just rude and inappropriate. I know plenty of extremely yeshivish and chasidish men that would never go out to eat with another couple or even go for a shabbos meal, etc... But they will still be friendly, polite, say a few words, etc... In general, I am against extremes of any sort. Thats not to say that man was a bad person, maybe just very misguided or shy.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 8:01 am

DrMom wrote:

Interesting DrMom, when we have people coming to our door for tzedaka some men davka dont look at me and it makes me very upset. You are coming into my world and you are asking for charity. Why cant you look at me?

DrMom

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 8:05 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Even if they don't look at me, they do talk directly to me (which the man in the OP's post would not), and they take the chance to approach my door knowing full well that there is a possibility that a woman will answer the door, perhaps even an immodestly dressed woman.

Tablepoetry

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 8:07 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

just don't give.

cinnamon

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 8:22 am

I don't mind when men don't look at me or talk to me or ride in an elevator with me. It's their business and a free country.

However, once I was highly pregnant and bringing my then 14 month old to the babysitter. There was a boy maybe 15 or 16 years old waiting for the elevator with me. When it started to open he steped forward to block my way and said he will send it down for me.
Well I pushed passed him, stepped into the elevator and told him that it is very nice that he wants to be machmir on himself but as I am a lot older then him and pregnant and holding a baby I will be the one to send the elevator down to him.
He had the nerve to start saying something about this being his building and so he has the right to go first but the doors closed before I could hear the end of the sentence.

etky

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 8:32 am

cinnamon wrote:

Good for you!
I find that although I know where this type of behavior comes from and rationally I know not to take it personally, I find it deeply offensive on a visceral level when another human being ignores my existence.
It's like a negation of my humanity.

etky

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 9:04 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

I've given money to female beggars who don't look me in the eye. I hope none of us is ever in the position to know what it is to beg strangers for money.

First of all - the female beggar is not looking you in the eye for a very different reason than the male standing in your doorway. Second of all, the men who come to my door who won't look me in the face are not beggars. They are collecting for yeshivot that espouse the ideology that they represent. I certainly have no obligation to contribute money to any such institution. Sometime we do get people who are collecting for themselves or family members in distress. They are vetted by our religious council and have an authorization to show for it. I never turn away anyone in those situations - even if they don't look me in the face, whcih is very, very rare.

MaBelleVie

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 9:07 am

etky wrote:

1. You're making an assumption.
2. I don't really care who you choose to give to. I was just making a point about judging beggars.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 9:08 am

etky wrote:

Exactly the same where I live. And truthfully, I have never had a female come begging at my door.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 9:09 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

1. You're making an assumption.
2. I don't really care who you choose to give to. I was just making a point about judging beggars.

I really do not think etky is making any assumptions. I have had many men come beg at my door. They look me in the eye. I have had other types of men come to beg and they never ever look me in the eye. I dont think etky is making any assumptions. I think she is spot on, unfortunately.