Talking to men- the opposite end of the spectrum

MaBelleVie

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 6:11 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I really do not think etky is making any assumptions. I have had many men come beg at my door. They look me in the eye. I have had other types of men come to beg and they never ever look me in the eye. I dont think etky is making any assumptions. I think she is spot on, unfortunately.

I'm curious how you can be sure that those not looking you in the eye are doing it for modesty reasons. Do those same people look your husband in the eye? Maybe they're just really ashamed.

happybeingamom

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 6:17 am

To answer the OP's question, I agree with simple1 that he is socially awkward based on the fact that you said he is Yeshivish.

In my family there are men who will not gaze at women but they will certainly say thank you and show Hakros HaTov.

It is not a Yeshivish Mehalech as far as I know to act the way he did. In other groups I would imagine that if the wife said thank you etc. they would feel as if they did.

etky

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 6:18 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

I'm curious how you can be sure that those not looking you in the eye are doing it for modesty reasons. Do those same people look your husband in the eye? Maybe they're just really ashamed.

They are not ashamed. They usually come in pairs with a letter from the yeshiva which they thrust in your face while they look past you or at the ground. They are not beggars. They are fundraising for their yeshiva. Real beggars, of the female or male persuasion, may indeed not look at you because of shame. That is why I am not offended in those rare cases and have no problem giving.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 6:22 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

I'm curious how you can be sure that those not looking you in the eye are doing it for modesty reasons. Do those same people look your husband in the eye? Maybe they're just really ashamed.

Do you really want me to spell it out? Ok, I will. The ones that are not looking at me are charedi or chassidish. The men that are looking at me are not charedi or chassidish. There I said it. You asked.

amother

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 6:50 am

I believe a simple hello and thank you for ops situation, would have been perfect. Not conversing but at least acknowledging you. With that said I don't take offense at someone trying to be frum and not looking at a female. Do you understand male temptations? Hopefully we're not trolls so we cannot understand. I do however take offense when I say hello (that's it, just hello) to everyone in my building if I meet them downstairs (there are four families living in the house) and one guy consistently ignores (I've obviously stopped saying hello) and I know for a fact that he watches all sorts of movies etc which contain woman so a reply hello to someone who lives in your house would be in order?

dr. pepper

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 7:28 am

I was just telling over the article to my DH. His reaction was: why in the world were they talking so much! Why is that normal that the other husband was coming and talking to the wife about his personal marriage. Why were they texting! That was the warning sign for anyone with boundaries.

FYI, my husbands job entails him interacting with a lot of women. He has very strict boundaries and when they are crossed, that person is "blacklisted" Very Happy

(for lack of better term).

Actually, what I took from the article was basically, don't fall into a false sense of security. That just because your marriage is good and you follow the letter of the halachic law (ie. yichud, hair covering, mikvah) that it will be enough to protect your from temptation.

Indeed, it is commendable to put fences and barriers to protect our marriages and ourselves b/c ultimately: ain apitryos l'aroyos-there is no one safe from temptation

That said, I will acknowledge the opposite gender, but I never call by first name and avoid personal and light chatting.
The fact that I feel slightly awkward/uncomfortable is a good sign to me. I should feel that! The fact that I wouldn't would be a desensitization on my part and not something I'd brag about.

You can brag about the burning hot sand not hurting your soles, but that just means that your nerve endings are so shot they can't tell the difference. Not something l'chatchila or healthy.

amother

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 7:32 am

When my niece got married I innocently talked to her dh, got no response. Not only that but we were at a family wedding and was looking for my dh and she asked him to call my dh for me. He didn't even answer her- just walked away and didn't call him.
Yes they are chassidish, so am I , but I wasn't raised that way and I was a bit offended. I'm a decade older than him.
But, I learned my lesson not to talk to my sister's SILs. ( my brothers SILs will talk to me, same way I talk to all of my uncles .)
Anon bec I've mentioned this to other family members.

Abby2

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 7:40 am

Thank you for all your replies.

Like I said, I have no problem if a man doesnt want to look at me, but to not acknowledge someone is plain rude.

As a seminary student it also can give you the wrong impression of what a kollel life is, because of the complete lack of derech eretz. Luckily I had other role models that year.

DrMom

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 7:47 am

dr. pepper wrote:

And if Afghanistan, the men are super-sensitive to seeing a woman's nose. Does that mean they are "healthier"?

amother

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 9:48 am

I lived in Israel for several years when I was single and came across families where the husband was super frum and extreme. Some people take things to extreme (for example women who wear burkas in the name of tznius).
I think it is derech eretz to say a short hello to a seminary girl who is doing chessed in your house. You are not paying her a dime and she is doing this out of the goodness of her heart. It's not an avairah to say hello and thank her... even if you look at the floor while doing so.
Sometimes I wonder if this kind of extreme behavior gets people in trouble. For example, I noticed that in ads for purim costumes the faces of the little girls were blocked out. Since when is it ossur to look at a child's face? So now we have cases of frum men who are pedophiles. When you make everything ossur it may make some men do wrong things.....
This is off topic but I remember going on a date in Israel with a young man who was a BT. Anyways he explained to me that he does not open the door for ladies because it is not tznius.

ectomorph

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 10:15 am

dr. pepper wrote:

I agree.

bigsis144

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 10:33 am

dr. pepper wrote:

That's why I dust and sterilize my house multiple times a day... better for my kids to be sensitized to all those germs and dust mites, right?

I'm sure asthma and worse when they're inevitably exposed is better than heaven forbid letting them grow up playing in the dirt...

Rolling Eyes

boro parker

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 10:58 am

smilingmom wrote:

It could also be what he thought you expected him not to acknowledge you.
I do not talk to frum men. If I am walking down the street and one of my frum neighbors says hello, I nod my head, otherwise, I ignore them.
If they are visiting in my house, I give minimal greetings but don't converse.
I guess I am just projecting my DH standards to other frum men.
If they engage me in tachlis conversation, of course I talk as much as I need to.

Don't get me wrong, if I see a male non Jewish colleague, I haven't seen in a long time, I will definetly return a hug or kiss that he initiates, as well as any I may get from my relatives.
I also shake hands with men. I just believe that frummies have to abide by a different standard.

I would never!!! According to my chassidic standards this is absolutely not allowed!

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 11:14 am

boro parker wrote:

I would never!!! According to my chassidic standards this is absolutely not allowed!

So to your standards its assur but for others it is not. I also learned that it is worse to embarrass someone by not hugging or kissing them than not doing it, so I also am allowed.

Boro parker, different FRUM jews, different ways they learn the halachot.