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I have been thinking about this for years



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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 26 2014, 10:00 am
http://haemtza.blogspot.com/20.....l?m=1
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happybeingamom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 26 2014, 10:19 am
More mussar learning is needed.
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MamaBear




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 26 2014, 10:28 am
I see all these threads about the rude and pushy Jews of New York and wherever else. Cutting line, parking where they shouldn't park, not supervising their children etc If this is how adults behave, how can we expect their children to behave or grow up much differently?
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 26 2014, 1:29 pm
Can't disagree with anything in this article, and it's true for both boys and girls.

I went nuts when my girls were in HS: they spent their time learning all kinds of meforshim and could teitch a Ramban -- but they had no clue that halachos of shopping even existed. Their halacha classes focused on Shabbos and Yom Tov, and their hashkafa classes seemed to be focused on tznius, kashrus, and not talking to boys.

We try to learn the halachos bein adam l'chavero at home, but sometimes it's an uphill climb. None of their friends is required to sit at the dinner table and discuss things like whether and when you're allowed to, say, check your smart phone to see if merchandise is cheaper at a another store.

What's even more disturbing is the number of issurim d'orisa that people regularly commit as a result of bad habits and lack of knowledge -- and I certainly include myself in that! Cutting in line is a perfect example. It should be as rare in a frum store as a sale on pork chops. Unfortunately, people mistakenly consider it bad manners than an actual aveira.

I've often wished that someone, somewhere could initiate activities that lead to greater awareness and regular learning of these halachos -- similar to what has happened with shmiras haloshen. Of course, loshen hora hasn't disappeared, but people are far more aware than they were even 20 years ago, and people who engage in loshen hora know enough to realize that they should be embarrassed -- even if they still do it
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 26 2014, 1:42 pm
Fox wrote:
What's even more disturbing is the number of issurim d'orisa that people regularly commit as a result of bad habits and lack of knowledge -- and I certainly include myself in that! Cutting in line is a perfect example. It should be as rare in a frum store as a sale on pork chops. Unfortunately, people mistakenly consider it bad manners than an actual aveira.


There is a very Very VERY popular chinuch mentor and lecturer here in Israel who teaches American mothers exactly this: that cutting, pushing, being rude, etc. is simply a cultural difference and we should let our kids learn to fit into Israeli culture in this way. If we don't, we are handicapping them shock .

None for me, thanks.
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Happy18




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 26 2014, 1:55 pm
5*Mom wrote:
There is a very Very VERY popular chinuch mentor and lecturer here in Israel who teaches American mothers exactly this: that cutting, pushing, being rude, etc. is simply a cultural difference and we should let our kids learn to fit into Israeli culture in this way. If we don't, we are handicapping them shock .

None for me, thanks.



shock shock shock Thats just a new level of nutty.
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naomi2




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 26 2014, 4:29 pm
MamaBear wrote:
I see all these threads about the rude and pushy Jews of New York and wherever else. Cutting line, parking where they shouldn't park, not supervising their children etc If this is how adults behave, how can we expect their children to behave or grow up much differently?

this.
it's up to the parents to teach, not the school. the teachers could mussar till their blue in the face but if a child sees a parent being a rude driver or cutting in line, the child will do so too.
I'm talking from experience. the positive behaviors that I saw my parents do are ingrained in me and im very careful in those areas.
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Happy18




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 26 2014, 4:39 pm
naomi2 wrote:
this.
it's up to the parents to teach, not the school. the teachers could mussar till their blue in the face but if a child sees a parent being a rude driver or cutting in line, the child will do so too.
I'm talking from experience. the positive behaviors that I saw my parents do are ingrained in me and im very careful in those areas.


Very true. As a teacher I see this firsthand all too often. Students who are a pleasure learn their good behavior from home. It is a rare student who has obnoxious parents who knows how to behave and vice versa. Obviously there are exceptions, but usually there are reasons.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 26 2014, 4:48 pm
5*Mom wrote:
There is a very Very VERY popular chinuch mentor and lecturer here in Israel who teaches American mothers exactly this: that cutting, pushing, being rude, etc. is simply a cultural difference and we should let our kids learn to fit into Israeli culture in this way. If we don't, we are handicapping them shock .

None for me, thanks.


Truthfully, this is the primary reason I would never consider raising my kids in EY or in any region that accepts such behavior as the norm. While I realize it's possible to raise wonderful, yiras Shemayim children despite such an environment, I consider it a clear and present danger.

Kudos to you for not adopting the "cultural differences" excuse!

naomi2 wrote:
it's up to the parents to teach, not the school. the teachers could mussar till their blue in the face but if a child sees a parent being a rude driver or cutting in line, the child will do so too.
I'm talking from experience. the positive behaviors that I saw my parents do are ingrained in me and im very careful in those areas.


Obviously, at one level you're absolutely correct. Nevertheless, there's ample evidence that teaching halachos in a matter-of-fact manner in a school setting can change perceptions and behavior -- albeit subtly and over a long period of time. There are plenty of observances that were virtually unknown (or at least unpracticed!) by parents but became more common partly as a result of educating children.

But people have to hear from all sides, and even then it takes a long time to see real change. The hardest part is getting it started.
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mummiedearest




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 26 2014, 5:07 pm
I have met a number of educators who suffer from the same lack of middos. I cringe when I see this on the part of educators in my son's school. around here, one is constantly told that one may not ever contradict a teacher, that it will damage the child's education. I don't believe this, and when my son comes home with certain stories, I explain exactly why the adult in question was wrong to behave in such a way. I make sure to explain that many adults don't realize that this is a problem, and that the teacher probably had good intentions. I just can't risk my son learning to behave like that.

I do believe it's largely the fault of educators, especially in the boys' yeshivas. the boys spend the majority of time with these rebbeim who are considered chashuv. they admire their rebbeim. why wouldn't they imitate the behavior they see at school? the rebbeim were obviously taught by people of the same mannerisms. this is being passed down from generation to generation through the school system. the parents of today who show these lovely middos were educated by the same people.

I'm always flabbergasted by the lack of sensitivity some people show. I'm not going to list examples, I have too many to choose from.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 26 2014, 6:22 pm
I got a glimpse of the title/topic and am not reading any further because I anticipate it will be a Loshon-Hara-fest. Not the article and not the thread. So I apologize in advance for posting obliviously and possibly irrelevantly. I just want to say that as a former BY student, prospective BY parent, and having taught in various boys' yeshivas and girls' Bais Yaakovs, I have seen quite a lot of middos teaching. Surely there is always room for improvement but it is unfair and untrue to say that nobody is trying. I have seen special extracurricular programs targeting interpersonal behavior, middos included in the standard curriculum, and teachers who utilize naturally occurring "teachable moments" to address these issues as they come up in classroom life. I have seen teachers apologize for having possibly mistakenly offended a student. I have seen students act with kindness and sensitivity to each other. I have seen literary materials supporting these values both in and out of school. I have seen in both boys and girls schools, both the male and female teachers are *in general* polite, gentle, well-mannered people who pay attention to their students' development in these areas as well. I have also seen that in general, kids will be kids, and just because someone has been raised with strong values and middos education does not mean they will always be a malach. It takes many years to fully develop these skills, especially when one's natural personality is more rough. This is not an excuse and certainly a lot of effort needs to go into overcoming this nature, but it is normal.

I am now going to leave before witnessing any more bashing of a community that, while naturally imperfect, has its heart and efforts in the right place. Maybe I was just "lucky" in every single school I worked in and there is really a huge problem in this area, I just want to point out that in my personal experience alone there are about half a dozen schools on the right track.
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