Older single women having babies on their own, WDYT?

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 4:21 pm

Yes, Chabad is especially known for its ability to inspire. They are all about that.

But perhaps a deep attitudinal idea about how important religious commitment is should be looked at very carefully. That's way inside the person, at a deeper mental level than what they are used to or go along with or were taught.

If that is comparable in the two people, they can move toward compromise of exactly HOW Hashem is served.

But how important it is to think religiously should be the same in the two people.

And how much faith they both put in rabbinic teaching and guidance should be the same. You don't want one spouse refusing a leniency the other one accepts. You want them to accept the same authority in the same degree.

Basically.

There will be moments when one is exasperated with the other's laziness. But if they are somewhat in agreement, they can exhort each other fruitfully.

I think a marriage should have a Rav.

There is a need for an arbitrator.

A marriage is giving major annoyance on this forum, and when posters say "go to his Rav" the OP says "his shul does not have a Rav". Well that's not good.

In Avos it says, make for yourself a master.

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 5:44 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

What a pity I didnt keep in touch with that single frum woman who was trying ot have a biological sibling for her already donor-sperm-born son. I'm curious if her children grew up to be gedolei yisroel.... all I know is her location and how many years ago this happened. Hmmmm... (she was tsnius and was saying tehillim, she had a pidyon haben for her firstborn.... totally frum....)

Well, I gather that your kids aren't that old, so her kids probably aren't either: they can't yet be gedolei yisrael, not for a while! Who knows, maybe she was saying tehillim for you too, and that helped you have your children!

I know none of us can totally understand what another person is going through, but I do think there is something to be said for positive and negative energies towards others. I think it would be good for you and for her and for others that you've encountered on your journey to let it go ... You have your family, she has hers, others have theirs; we do not take away from each other when we get pregnant and have children. As long as we are good, loving parents, as long as we can handle the children we have, as long as our children are genuinely loved and wanted, the more children, the better.

groisamomma

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 7:45 pm

freidasima wrote:

Who gives a rat's a$$ who becomes or doesn't become a charedi godol? Why in the world would anyone care? I didn't have kids for them to become "gedolim" either chareidi or MO. I had kids because I wanted to have kids and I wanted them to grow up and be happy and do good things for themselves and their families and the world in general including the Jewish world. I never thought of their becoming a Godol, a Koton or anything else.

So who cares if a child who is adopted, IVF'd , sperm donored or whatever becomes this, that or the third thing? Why is it even relevant to the conversation?

How bizarre.

Indeed, who cares? It's probably irrelevant, which is why I mentioned it offhandedly.

mirror

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 11:45 pm

Ok, here it comes.

We are all descendants of non-Jewish sperm.

During times of war (if you learned Jewish history) the Jewish women were raped by the non-Jewish soldiers. They had babies and kept them and raised them and didn't tell anyone.

Let's give credit to the Greeks, Romans, Poles, Germans, the Cossacks and (insert nationality here).

Inevitably, I am 100% sure that many Choshuva Rabbonim descend from these war babies. The fact is that every Jew has a Jewish Neshomo, even if it was the result of an unholy union.

(I will not state my opinion regarding electing to use non-Jewish sperm, though.)

DrMom

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 12:19 am

OPINIONATED wrote:

I don't think you can make a blanket statement like that.
What about the Kohen genetic markers?

amother

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 9:01 am

Mama Bear wrote:

I started a post and deleted it because it ends up coming off very snooty and discriminatory. If someone with more background and eloquence can explain, please chime in. There is definitely something to be said for how a person is conceived - that is why so many ppl hesitate greatly before going for IUI or IVF as it is *not* ideal. There is so much written about the holiness of a union which produces a child - why do you think it's ideal to be married, to be tahor, to have the right machashavos, etc.? Of course wwe're not all perfect. We try however. It's not a free-for-all religion where we can just have a baby with whomever we want however we want. There *are* halochos. But to *purposely* create a child with a non Jewish father? Not an ideal way to bring down a neshama. People who were created in niddah (such as BTs) or through intermarriage are products of unions beyond their control. But to do it on PURPOSE? Not ideal.

Mama Bear, you are free to feel what you feel, of course, but I think some words are just better left unsaid. Especially since you are not the most anonymous poster on this board.
It is just simply wrong to state that you think a single woman shouldn't have an IVF baby because , a married woman, didn't have any.

I am an amother who was raised without a father. I wasn't zocheh to know my father and any of my grandfathers. I have a friend who last her father and her grandfather last year. I was sorry for her but I couldn't really commiserate so deeply because I just don't relate. Besides, I truly think it is better to have had a father and a grandfather and lose them when you are 30 something than to have never had them. But I don't walk up to her and say "Stop crying, you have had your share", and I don't post anything to this effect on here (except for now) because I truly think it is an ugly feeling.

mirror

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 9:06 am

Raisin wrote:

this article seems to indicate that pregnancy resulting from rape was not all that common. http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48937817.html

Quote:

The results also indicate a low level of admixture (intermarriage, conversion, rape, etc.) into the gene pool of these various Jewish communities.

Quote:

ASHKENAZI LINKS
Although the Ashkenazi (European) Jewish community separated from their Mediterranean ancestors some 1,200 years ago and lived among Central and Eastern European gentiles, their paternal gene pool still resembles that of other Jewish and Semitic groups originating in the Middle East.
A low rate of intermarriage between Diaspora Jews and local gentiles was the key reason for this continuity. Since the Jews first settled in Europe more than 50 generations ago, the intermarriage rate was estimated to be only about 0.5% in each generation.

The 0.5% intermarriage rate probably includes rape incidents.

MommyZ

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 9:13 am

http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.htm

The focus of the present study is to analyze and reassess Ashkenazi results obtained by DNA researchers and synthesize them into a coherent picture of Jewish genetics, interweaving historical evidence in order to obtain a more accurate depiction of the complex genetic history of this group. Many of the DNA studies on Ashkenazim fail to adequately address the complexity of the genetic evidence, in particular, the significant genetic contribution of European and Central Asian peoples in the makeup of the contemporary Ashkenazi population. One important contribution to Ashkenazi DNA appears to have originated with the Khazars, an ancient people of probable Central Asian stock that lived in southern Russia during the 8th-12th centuries CE. Significant inflow of genes from European host populations over the centuries is also supported by the DNA evidence. The present study analyzes not only the Middle Eastern component of Ashkenazi ancestry, but also the genetic contribution from European and Central Asian sources that appear to have had an important impact on Ashkenazi ancestry.

Raisin

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 9:30 am

About Mama Bears comment - many women suffering from infertility have commented how bad they feel when a younger sil has her 4th kids in 5 years, or people bring babies to shul or wherever. Does that mean those of us bh blessed with children should all stop having children or taking our kids places? No. But doesn't mean the pain and feelings are not real, however irrational.

MommyZ

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 9:34 am

DrMom wrote:

I don't think you can make a blanket statement like that.
What about the Kohen genetic markers?

Not only did the genetic researchers corroborate the oral history of an ancient Jewish priestly caste, but they also confirmed the genetic link between both Sephardic and Ashkenazi populations, indicating that before the two populations separated, those who shared the CMH also shared common Israelite ancestry. Today, the CMH is considered not only the standard genetic signature of the priestly Cohanim, but also the yardstick by which all Jewish DNA is compared for determination of Israelite genetic ancestry. Thus, if a haplogroup is not shared by both Sephardim and Ashkenazim at a similar frequency, then it is generally not considered to be of Israelite origin.

Skorecki and Hammer reported that the CMH occurred within Y chromosome haplogroup J (Skorecki et al. 1997). We now know significantly more about haplogroup J than when these studies were originally published. Haplogroup J consists of an ancestral form (J*) and two subgroups – J1 and J2. Although you can have the CMH in either J1 or J2, it is the genetic signature in J1 that is considered the Jewish priestly signature.

What is not widely reported is that only 48% of Ashkenazi Cohanim and 58% of Sephardic Cohanim have the J1 Cohen Modal Haplotype (Skorecki et al. 1997). So nearly half of the Ashkenazi Cohanim results are in haplogroups other than J1. Overall, J1 constitutes 14.6% of the Ashkenazim results and 11.9% of the Sephardic results (Semino et al. 2004). Nor is Cohanim status dependent on a finding of haplogroup J1.

Tablepoetry

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 9:36 am

Raisin wrote:

From what I have heard, the Khazars converted to Judaism en masse. So that was not intermarriage. I guess that and the 5% rate was enough to account for the fairer skin and even occasionally blond ashkenazi Jews.

In recent generations there is a lot more intermarriage and conversion (to Judaism) then there used to be.

Tunisian Jews look different than morrocan Jews, despite the proximity. The Ashkenazim are not an anomaly.

MommyZ

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 9:39 am

Raisin wrote:

I think nobody will deny that the pain is real, but the perception is that she was implying that as a married woman, she was more entitled. That is not how fertility works. One person conceiving a baby doesn't diminish someone else's odds of conceiving. So Mama Bear was upset that another woman benifited from a situation that essentially caused her no personal harm. That can come across as a bit egocentric.

vintagebknyc

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 11:00 am

MommyZ wrote:

in english? embarrassed

MommyZ

Tue, Apr 08 2014, 12:26 pm

vintagebknyc wrote:

in english? embarrassed

Basically, this Cohen gene was being used as proof here that there has been very little or negligible amounts of gene mixing with non-Jews over the years. The point being that only 48% of Ashkenazi Cohanim and 58% of Sephardic Cohanim have the gene. Overall, including non-Cohanim, 14.6% of Ashkenazi Jews had the gene and 11.9% had the gene. This hardly proves the absence of gene mixing, and quite the contrary.

Does that make more sense?