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My daughter uninvited to a wedding - how do I tell her?
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 02 2014, 3:07 pm
sounds like the invite is causing a big fight between chosson and kallah. who knows how big!
good luck explaining to your dd. how very awkward for everyone,.
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morah




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 02 2014, 3:09 pm
Glad we helped you, OP! Hatzlacha in dealing with your dad, that seems to be the crux of the issue; your 10 year old will have gotten over it by the time her bat mitzvah rolls around :-)

Just wanted to say, that those who brought up the issue of family infighting also make an excellent point. When the chossen's Uncle Shmeryl decides to bring his kids anyway because no one stood up to him, the kallah's family, who got into a fight with Aunt Shprintza when they told her in no uncertain terms that her kids had to stay home, well, now they're going to be resentful that they put in the effort to stick to the rule when the other side didn't. This can cause a lot of unnecessary stress on a brand new marriage. Whether it should or not, it's likely enough to happen that one should have that in mind before pooh-poohing the rule. You don't have to agree with the rule, but it's not your wedding. If you're so offended that you can't bring your kids, you're welcome to stay home with them, but not to impose what your idea of a wedding is on the couple.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 02 2014, 3:12 pm
I think it's a let down ... but it's the chosson & kallah's choice ...

with the simplest of explanations - the truth: no children are invited

do find something special for her to do on that night I.e. a pajama party with a friend [or other not invited cousins] - an arts & crafts activity - or get a dvd & pizza for her to chill at home
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mammala120




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 02 2014, 3:20 pm
watergirl wrote:
WOAH - amother, CHILL! I'm not sure you read my original post, or even the title of the post. I was not asking if I should bring her anyways. Like I stated, I already told my cousin that I understand and will leave her at home. I don't know why you are attacking, and I don't know why you are doing it under amother. Also, just for the record, although I don't know why I feel the need to reply to your rude post (which on this thread is the only one to be so rude!) that my family isn't frum. My cousin and I are the only frum ones, which is part of what makes this such a simcha for the two of us. I will be the only frum relative there (and my DH). I am assuming the kallah is an FFB but having not met her, I cant say for sure.

Thank you to the posters who gave great advice. I will explain to my daughter that her cousin didn't realize that there is a no kids rule and that I will bring her dessert and take pictures. She will be disappointed but that's life. I am annoyed, but that's also life, and I guess part of the reason I posted here was to vent a bit. I totally understand not having kids at a wedding. I wish my father hadn't called, and I wish the mother had told him no kids to start with. Everyone is in an awkward position here, and its uncomfortable all the way around (not sure the kallah is uncomfortable, but still).



I don't think the amother is being RUDE. I don't know if it is finances, I think it is more of keeping things cool, calm, less kaotic thats why kids are not invited. BUT believe me 10 year old is not NOT not a child. I have a 9 year old and she is my right hand, a great helper and understands everything. and believe me it is excellent experience for them to see the chupah. you will CRUSH your child's emotions. I would talk again with CHosson and explain to him that she is not a CHILD and should come or I would not attend my self to show support to my child. or you can get her a gift to compensate. but to tell her this is life SORRY is just wrong. how would you feel as a mother if you were not invited to an occasion???? or invited first and then told sorry no ladies allowed?
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amother


 

Post Wed, Apr 02 2014, 3:21 pm
amother wrote:
That's right. Its extremely immature of a couple to decide the tenor of their own wedding, and to decide whether or not they want children there.

Its especially immature of a young couple to consider their own finances, and the finances of their parents, and to draw lines as to whom they invite.

True maturity is a guest throwing a fit and demanding that his granddaughter be invited to a wedding where he will be a guest. And true maturity is putting the desires of a 10 year old above those of the couple. Because, of course, her dreams and hopes are much, much more important than that of the kallah.

And hey, the fact that none of the bride's cousins were invited? Well, clearly they will know that this child is SPECIAL, and won't care that their own kids weren't invited. Same for all of the couple's friends' kids. And if these people are all angry, if it causes a lot of family problems? How immature of them. The only mature thing is to allow this child to attend the wedding.

Actually, how immature not to invite all of the kids anyway. How many could there be in a frum family. 10? 20? 30? The additional cost will only be a few thousand dollars. Its clearly immature not to spend that money, even if you don't have it, so a bunch of kids can attend the wedding.

OP, if you want to cause a lot of resentment towards you, and between the couple, insist that your child attend the wedding, or bring her without an invitation. If, on the other hand, you are attending the wedding to bring happiness to the couple, and because you wish them well, tell your daughter that kids aren't invited. Then call the chosson and apologize for your father, stating that he was completely out of line and that of course you will be there, without your daughter, on his wedding day.

Your only other alternative is to call the chosson and say that your daughter really wants to come, and that if the issue is money, you will be glad to pay the cost for ALL children, on both sides, attending. If your daughter's wishes are more important than the couple's budget, then put your money where your mouth is.


I can't speak for the OP. But in my current situation we too hosted a bachur for many meals over a number of years and included him in our family and I think we really went out of our way for him (I.e. celbrating milestones in his life).
He moved out of town recently and my husband kept up a kesher with him.
He got engaged. he didn't call us. We found out second hand. We got a text forwarded to us about the vort. He didn't even bother sending it to us directly.
I understand he is busy, but after all the effort and expense we put into him, and effort for previous shidduchim I really expected a bit more. I think my husband is more hurt then I am. But I dont' think because I couple is engaged and totally busy with each other its an excuse to forget about those that brought them to that point and exclude them from their simcha. I do think it is lacking in hakaros hatov.
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abound




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 02 2014, 3:40 pm
OP- I think you are doing the smart thing, maybe do not tell your dad that you are not bringing your daughter and just let him realize during the wedding.

I hope you find a way to make the Kalla part of your family and you can be close one day.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 02 2014, 3:51 pm
This seems to me like a case where everybody's right and everybody's wrong!

I've been at plenty of chassunahs where ill-supervised children ran wild, giving the entire affair the atmosphere of a camp cookout and knocking helter-skelter into everyone. I suspect this is what the kallah was envisioning when she made the "no kids" rule.

And if she makes an exception for the OP's pre-teen daughter, she won't be able to plausibly deny Cousin Malka, whose kids are, um, leibedik, and who will be texting on her phone all evening and won't adequately supervise them. In fact, I happen to know one kallah that made this "rule" for the sole purpose of excluding one family's kids -- there was just no polite way to say that inviting a street gang would be less disruptive.

So I can certainly understand why she would throw up her hands and ban all children.

At the same time, we all obviously feel for the OP and her daughter, particularly since frum chassunahs usually have at least some children from each family's side.

Here's my advice based on having been a preternaturally well-behaved only child who was often included at adult events -- but not always.

When I was not included in an invitation where it would have made logical sense to include me, my mother always gave me the, "it's not you, it's them" speech. She would remind me that most kids weren't as well-behaved at adult events as I was, and sometimes she's sprinkle in a few reminders of past experiences. She'd explain that, from the host's view, it would be embarrassing to single me out with an invitation while refusing to invite other children who might, based on the relationship, have as much or more reason to be invited.

Being perfectly honest, she also imparted a whiff of, "Nebach, children who can't behave ruin everything for their families and friends." That's probably not such a great message, but you can definitely communicate the difficult position accorded hosts who are fortunate enough to have mature, sophisticated 10-year-olds such as herself among their nearest and dearest.
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oliveoil




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 02 2014, 7:14 pm
mammala120 wrote:
I don't think the amother is being RUDE. I don't know if it is finances, I think it is more of keeping things cool, calm, less kaotic thats why kids are not invited. BUT believe me 10 year old is not NOT not a child. I have a 9 year old and she is my right hand, a great helper and understands everything. and believe me it is excellent experience for them to see the chupah. you will CRUSH your child's emotions. I would talk again with CHosson and explain to him that she is not a CHILD and should come or I would not attend my self to show support to my child. or you can get her a gift to compensate. but to tell her this is life SORRY is just wrong. how would you feel as a mother if you were not invited to an occasion???? or invited first and then told sorry no ladies allowed?


Sorry, a normal 10 year old should not be crushed by this situation.

And when your kids get older, you'll realize that 9 or 10 is not as grown up as you think.
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esther09




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 02 2014, 7:47 pm
OP - it seems like this isn't about your daughter but about your relationship with your cousin's new kallah. Explaining to your 10 year old that she can't have something is most probably something you've had to do before (though I'm sure you'll have a lot of jealous mothers here if not!)

You seem insulted that this cousin, who has become like a brother to you, who you've fed and taken care of and helped through the parsha, isn't pushing his kallah to feel the same relationship toward you. That she hasn't been bothered to meet you and that she doesn't feel like she owes you or that same sense of closeness. She may not realize the relationship you have with her new chosson.

If you want to maintain that closeness with said cousin, work on your relationship with her. Maybe she's still insulted that you didn't come to the vort, maybe it was miscommunicated to her that you really couldn't get someone to cover. Wait until after the wedding (kallahs get stressed and their judgment may get blurred, unfortunately) and then try to spend some time with her, maybe even invite her over for some girl time with you and your daughter, go for manicures, etc. I think that will truly make you feel better about the situation.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 02 2014, 10:49 pm
amother wrote:

I understand he is busy, but after all the effort and expense we put into him, and effort for previous shidduchim I really expected a bit more. I think my husband is more hurt then I am. But I dont' think because I couple is engaged and totally busy with each other its an excuse to forget about those that brought them to that point and exclude them from their simcha. I do think it is lacking in hakaros hatov.


You win some, you lose some. This young man excluded your entire family. He didn't even call you to let you know he was engaged. That is disgraceful behavior, lacking in basic menschlichkeit, and is not at all comparable to OP's cousin. He invited her and her dh, so he didn't exactly cast them aside like yesterday's newspaper. He's under no obligation to invite the dd, who was not the person who fed and lodged him and allowed him to make free with the computer. Many good and valid reasons not to invite children have already been posted.
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Simple1




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 02 2014, 11:04 pm
oliveoil wrote:
Sorry, a normal 10 year old should not be crushed by this situation.

And when your kids get older, you'll realize that 9 or 10 is not as grown up as you think.


I have teens and I still think that a lot of 10 year old girls are mature enough to behave nicely at a wedding. I do understand though, that hosts who don't want kids may not know where to draw the line, so they say no kids at all.

Watergirl, I won't add to the advice you got. But you said this is a vent, so I will sympathize with you and agree that this must be very disappointing after all you've done for him.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Apr 03 2014, 12:06 am
Fox wrote:

When I was not included in an invitation where it would have made logical sense to include me, my mother always gave me the, "it's not you, it's them" speech. She would remind me that most kids weren't as well-behaved at adult events as I was, and sometimes she's sprinkle in a few reminders of past experiences. She'd explain that, from the host's view, it would be embarrassing to single me out with an invitation while refusing to invite other children who might, based on the relationship, have as much or more reason to be invited.

I like this a lot!
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amother


 

Post Thu, Apr 03 2014, 2:44 pm
watergirl wrote:
WOAH - amother, CHILL! I'm not sure you read my original post, or even the title of the post. I was not asking if I should bring her anyways. Like I stated, I already told my cousin that I understand and will leave her at home. I don't know why you are attacking, and I don't know why you are doing it under amother. Also, just for the record, although I don't know why I feel the need to reply to your rude post (which on this thread is the only one to be so rude!) that my family isn't frum. My cousin and I are the only frum ones, which is part of what makes this such a simcha for the two of us. I will be the only frum relative there (and my DH). I am assuming the kallah is an FFB but having not met her, I cant say for sure.

Thank you to the posters who gave great advice. I will explain to my daughter that her cousin didn't realize that there is a no kids rule and that I will bring her dessert and take pictures. She will be disappointed but that's life. I am annoyed, but that's also life, and I guess part of the reason I posted here was to vent a bit. I totally understand not having kids at a wedding. I wish my father hadn't called, and I wish the mother had told him no kids to start with. Everyone is in an awkward position here, and its uncomfortable all the way around (not sure the kallah is uncomfortable, but still).


I am sorry that you were upset by my comments. Perhaps I should have been more clear that you, personally, did nothing wrong. The advice you were given, however, was horrific:

“Don't crush her dreams just because of some immature chosson-kallah.”

“[Your father] should give it to this calla over the head and teach her a thing about hakaras hatov.”

Or in other words, the advice given is that the feelings of your child were more important to these posters than the feelings – and budget – of the couple.

As should have been – and I think was – clear from my post, this is the advice I addressed.

For the record, my dearest friend is making a wedding. She has been a second mother to my children, and her children have practically been siblings to my kids. My kids don’t understand why they are not invited to the wedding. I do. Money. Money, money, money. If you invite my kids, there are 7 or 8 other kids whose parents are at the same level of friendship, and who would also need be included, or the parents would be upset. My kids will need to understand.
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sky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 03 2014, 2:49 pm
yes, but saying to please come to the chuppah doesn't cost money.

I've taken my children to people's chuppahs if I know they will be quiet and take them right home after.
Or if they won't be quiet or it will be too late then I will take them at the start of the wedding by the bedeken to wish the chassan and kallah mazel tov. It sounded to me like OP was told not to do that.
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worldpeace




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 03 2014, 2:59 pm
I'm really shocked

What frum wedding doesn't have childern
And why the helk not
It' seems very strange to me
Someone please explain
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worldpeace




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 03 2014, 3:06 pm
Ok now I kinda understand
But what about just letting kids to either kaballas p or chupah??
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bubbebia




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 03 2014, 3:15 pm
We in the frum community tend to have the expectation that all children will be invited to all weddings and will be accepted at all times. This is not the real world, folks. And it's not always about money either. Sometimes it's about the personality of the families involved and the need to do things in a certain way. Some families are more formal than other families. And sometimes there are too many children in the families to make this feasible. Whatever the reason, one needs to respect the wishes of the families. It is their simcha, not yours and they are the only ones with a say in the matter.

That being said, OP, yes your DD will be disappointed, but if you explain to her that no children are being invited to the wedding and it wouldn't be fair to all the rest who would like to be there too if she was the only one there. And just remind her that the families of the chosson and kallah are the only ones who can decide this and it is their decision. And I would say "families" instead of just "the chosson and kallah". It gives it a wider scope.

However, I don't believe that she should be given some special privilege just to compensate either. A 10 year old is old enough to deal with disappointment without falling apart. But I do like the idea that she could help with Sheva brachos if that is a possibility.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 03 2014, 3:41 pm
a sensitive 10 yr old? sure.

heck, I don't even like "children table" (maybe because I was once sent there, as a 19 yr old, along with all singles including an aunt of the bar mitsva!!) and will try bringing my child to my table and have on my lap.

For a wedding it's even more evocative to have kids around. Someone recently thanked me for bringing a good siman. It was a small, classy, mostly MO affair and I didn't think to ask.
Highly cultural.
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scrltfr




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 03 2014, 3:42 pm
worldpeace wrote:
I'm really shocked

What frum wedding doesn't have childern
And why the helk not
It' seems very strange to me
Someone please explain


My frum wedding for one! We only had nieces and nephews but of course someone decided to bring their kid uninvited and it caused family issues. Respect the chosson and kallah. It's their wedding not yours!
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lkwdmommy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 03 2014, 3:48 pm
My parents got married about 15 years after WWII. My mom wanted a classy wedding, so she told her older cousins - who were all war survivors - not to bring their kids.

A cousin looked at her, horrified. She said at their weddings there were no children because THERE WERE NO CHILDREN (they had all been mudered HY"D). Children are the simcha! Why would you make a wedding with no children??

My mother was taken aback for a moment and quickly reconsidered. Children are our pride and our future. (Now, if they would all behave a simchas.... LOL )
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