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-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
ruby slippers
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 Wed, Apr 02 2014, 5:08 pm
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My 8 year old ds came home from school and asked , " if milk can only be kosher from a kosher animal why is honey kosher and bees make it and bees are not kosher" any good answers put there.
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MaBelleVie
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 5:14 pm
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That is a great question! What I've heard is that honey is not actually a product of the bee itself. It is basically just nectar that the bee processes to turn it into honey.
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yOungM0mmy
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 5:23 pm
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What MaBelleVie said. The bee does not actually produce the honey in it's body, just carries the nectar and regurgitates it into the hive, where it becomes honey
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ruby slippers
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 5:53 pm
My ds understood the answer and felt so special when I told him the gemarah asked his same question!
thanks!
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amother
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 8:39 pm
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DH does not eat honey. He has some friends that observe the same. Honey contains some enzymes that are introduced by the bee's digestive system..
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MaBelleVie
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 10:09 pm
| amother wrote: | | DH does not eat honey. He has some friends that observe the same. Honey contains some enzymes that are introduced by the bee's digestive system.. |
What's the halachic source for that?
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amother
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 10:19 pm
| MaBelleVie wrote: | | What's the halachic source for that? | He recognizes that it is mutar, but as bee is an insect and it also is forbidden to eat parts of insects, he doesn't eat them.
The same way science knows that sometimes it is the men's fault when a woman can't get pregnant, honey contains enzymes that are from bees.What I mean is, there are certain things that are only possible to know nowadays. By halacha it is mutar?Yes, of course. But knowing the things we know nowadays, one may wonder if we really should be eating it!
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Lady Bug
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 10:27 pm
| amother wrote: | He recognizes that it is mutar, but as bee is an insect and it also is forbidden to eat parts of insects, he doesn't eat them.
The same way science knows that sometimes it is the men's fault when a woman can't get pregnant, honey contains enzymes that are from bees.What I mean is, there are certain things that are only possible to know nowadays. By halacha it is mutar?Yes, of course. But knowing the things we know nowadays, one may wonder if we really should be eating it! |
I think this reasoning is wrong. It borders on "lo sosif". If it's allowed, it's allowed, whether you agree with the reasoning or not.
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MaBelleVie
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 10:27 pm
| amother wrote: | He recognizes that it is mutar, but as bee is an insect and it also is forbidden to eat parts of insects, he doesn't eat them.
The same way science knows that sometimes it is the men's fault when a woman can't get pregnant, honey contains enzymes that are from bees.What I mean is, there are certain things that are only possible to know nowadays. By halacha it is mutar?Yes, of course. But knowing the things we know nowadays, one may wonder if we really should be eating it! |
Halacha knew all that. Do you really believe that they didn't know the bee added secretions to the nectar? Honey still isn't considered a product of the bee. Don't you think a single posek would have mentioned if there was a problem? This just smacks of bal tosif.
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Lady Bug
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 10:36 pm
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Also, I don't remember the concept or its source exactly, so maybe someone can help me out here. For every issur, Hashem created a way for it to be muttar. He forbid secretions of nonkosher animals, but allowed honey etc.
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Chana Miriam S
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 10:41 pm
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My understanding is that honey is referenced in the Torah thus it is considered an exception. Further, apparently there is a kashrut argument about bees legs that was referenced to me by the rav hamachshir (I am a mashgiach) that actually addresses the idea of bee parts in honey. I don't know the sources.
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Chana Miriam S
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 10:45 pm
The Mishna in Tractate Bechorot states:
"That which comes from something which is Tameh [non-Kosher] is Tameh, and that which comes of that which is Tahor [Kosher] is Tahor." So you were right, Balint -- the product of a non-Kosher animal is not Kosher. So why is bee-honey Kosher?
The Talmud in the same Tractate quotes a Beraita (a Halachic teaching from the time of the Mishna) which says:
"Why did they say that bee-honey is permitted? Because even though they bring it into their bodies, it is not a *product* of their bodies [it is stored there but not produced there]."
All the Sages of the Mishna agree with this ruling. One of them, Rabbi Yaakov, disagrees with the *reasoning*. He claims that bee-honey is Kosher based on his interpretation of Vayikra 11:21. According to him, the verse prohibits one to eat a flying insect, but *not* that which is *excreted* from it.
Maimonides codifies bee-honey as being Kosher, as does the Shulchan Aruch.
You may wonder: How could one even think that bee-honey is not Kosher -- the Torah refers to the Land of Israel as "a Land flowing with milk and honey"! Certainly the Torah would not choose a non-Kosher product as a means for describing the beauty of the Land of Israel! This may come as a surprise, but the honey mentioned in the verse about "milk and honey" is not bee-honey -- rather it is fig-honey. The Talmud in Tractate Berachot tells us that another verse "It is a Land of wheat, barley, grapes, figs and pomegranates -- a Land of olives and *honey*" -- is referring to date-honey.
Sources:
Tractate Bechorot, pages 5b, 7b.
The Codes of Maimonides, Laws of Forbidden Foods 3:3.
Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah, 81:8.
Tractate Megillah, page 6a, Rashi.
Chumash, Book of Devarim, 8:8.
Tractate Berachot, page 41b, Rashi.
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spring13
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 11:03 pm
| amother wrote: | He recognizes that it is mutar, but as bee is an insect and it also is forbidden to eat parts of insects, he doesn't eat them.
The same way science knows that sometimes it is the men's fault when a woman can't get pregnant, honey contains enzymes that are from bees.What I mean is, there are certain things that are only possible to know nowadays. By halacha it is mutar?Yes, of course. But knowing the things we know nowadays, one may wonder if we really should be eating it! |
Honey is filtered before it's packaged and sold (unless you buy it with the comb, but most people don't). Even back in the day, it would have been possible to strain it very finely. Sorry, but I definitely smell bal tosif. Did he come up with this on his own or did a rav influence him?
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groovy1224
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 11:04 pm
| amother wrote: | He recognizes that it is mutar, but as bee is an insect and it also is forbidden to eat parts of insects, he doesn't eat them.
The same way science knows that sometimes it is the men's fault when a woman can't get pregnant, honey contains enzymes that are from bees.What I mean is, there are certain things that are only possible to know nowadays. By halacha it is mutar?Yes, of course. But knowing the things we know nowadays, one may wonder if we really should be eating it! |
So does he also prefer to refer to Eretz Yisrael as "The Land of Just Milk" instead of "Milk and Honey'? Hashem probably didn't realize how honey was made till the scientists explained it to Him, otherwise He would have named it differently...
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MaBelleVie
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 11:07 pm
| groovy1224 wrote: | | So does he also prefer to refer to Eretz Yisrael as "The Land of Just Milk" instead of "Milk and Honey'? Hashem probably didn't realize how honey was made till the scientists explained it to Him, otherwise He would have named it differently... |
The honey in that case refers to date honey, not bee honey.
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groovy1224
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 11:12 pm
| MaBelleVie wrote: | | The honey in that case refers to date honey, not bee honey. |
Really? I feel like I remember learning in high school about how the phrase milk and honey is almost a paradox bc honey is kosher but comes from a non kosher animal, but milk does come from a kosher animal but you can't eat it while eating the animal. Or something to that effect. So I assumed it was referring to bee's honey.
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MaBelleVie
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 11:16 pm
| groovy1224 wrote: | | Really? I feel like I remember learning in high school about how the phrase milk and honey is almost a paradox bc honey is kosher but comes from a non kosher animal, but milk does come from a kosher animal but you can't eat it while eating the animal. Or something to that effect. So I assumed it was referring to bee's honey. |
Devash in the Torah refers to dates. In that pasuk specifically it's a shevach to the agriculture of EY, which includes dates (one of the 7 minim).
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DrMom
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Wed, Apr 02 2014, 11:20 pm
| spring13 wrote: | | Honey is filtered before it's packaged and sold (unless you buy it with the comb, but most people don't). Even back in the day, it would have been possible to strain it very finely. Sorry, but I definitely smell bal tosif. Did he come up with this on his own or did a rav influence him? |
I'd like to point out that you can't filter out enzymes from honey using a simple mechanical filter.
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