When to potch? | Imamother

MaBelleVie

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 9:24 am

otsrock wrote:

OP, I am totally with you on potching when a young child does something dangerous. An 18 month old wouldn't understand time out or sitting in a chair for running into the street. A potch, in behavioral analysis, is immediate cause and effect. I run into the street, I get something I don't like. Try explaining this in words to an 18 month old, and call me so I can laugh. As for older children, potching is not as effective as explaining to them what they did wrong, because they don't need an immediate effect to understand what they've done wrong. I proudly potch my baby's tushy when she tries to topple over the floor lamp. Should I explain to her that what she did is dangerous? She's the only 1 1/2 year old I know that now steps a foot away from the lamp and says "booboo", because that is how immediate cause and effect works.

And you believe that this baby understands that you're hitting her out of love?

allrgymama

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 10:08 am

@5*Mom: But I never said that I 'let' my child run into the street! Chas v'shalom! That would be absolutely terrible parenting! If I let (meaning, gave permission/consciously allowed) my child do something dangerous and then punished them for it, shame on me!

But you will not convince me that there is a single parent on the board who hasn't had a child run into the street, or step foot into the street, even for a moment. It happens.

Obviously, it SHOULDN'T happen, but it does, for a variety of reasons. Even if you're a step behind them and you look up for one second, that could be all the time that they need. (And don't tell me that you shouldn't look up for one second; you can't walk down the street without ever looking up -- you could hurt yourself or bump into someone....).

Also, sometimes, something that never occurred to a child occurs to them when you are just not expecting. So, for example, I don't keep knives on my counter, but if it occurs to my 2 1/2 year old to drag a chair over to the counter for the first time when I happen to not be in the room (say, chas v'shalom, I needed the bathroom!) and then it occurs to her to open that drawer and take out a sharp knife and hurt herself -- then what? What if she decides to drag a chair over to the counter and decides to drink a bottle of dish soap?

Similarly, you can tell a child a thousand times that they cannot go into the street and they may listen, but all you need is one time for them to think to themselves (in whatever mental vocabulary they have), 'but really, what will happen if I DO step off the sidewalk?" and there you go. They're in the street.

You're not going to convince me that everyone has eyes on all of their children at all times. It just doesn't happen. Goodness, yesterday I watched three different four and five year olds decide that they couldn't be bothered to wait for someone to cross them and just ran across the street. I was stunned that at that age it would still be an issue, but there you go.

Things. Happen.

And who said anything about wanting to sit down? I wanted her to learn to not go into the street so she would be safe.

Furthermore, I didn't say that I WAS or WOULD escalate my potching practices to include undefined situations. The whole purpose of the post was to say: until now, causes for potching have been clearly defined and now I encountered a situation where I felt like potching but was unclear as to whether I should. What are your thoughts?

My original question wasn't 'What kind of stupidity deserves a potch?' (assuming to begin with that there are kinds of stupidity that do deserve it), my question was 'When, if ever, does stupidity deserve a potch?" which is vastly different to my mind.

My post was not a question as to whether I should or should not potch in general and it was not a statement to say 'Hey, you guys! Guess what? Until now, I only potched my children if they were chutzpadig or dangerous, but I'm now proud to say that I'm ALSO going to potch them when they do something stupid"

I mean. Really.

5*Mom

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 10:39 am

allrgymama wrote:

NOT FIVE TIMES!!! One time is an honest mistake, but now you know. Twice is neglect. I can't find the word for what five times is.

I'm not sure why you are not getting the fact that you are responsible for not preventing your 18-mo-old from running into the street five times (and seem to be quite proud that "it only took about 5 potches...").

Let me break it down for you:

a) A small child who does not understand the dangers of the street should be kept far away from the street so you will have more lead time should she begin to make her way towards the street.

b) If it takes no more than 1 second for your 18-mo-old to outrun you into the street, you were not taking proper precautions and were too close to the street without holding her hand to begin with.

c) If it takes no more than 1 second for your 18-mo-old to outrun you into the street on 5 separate occasions...! I mean. Really.

allrgymama wrote:

Also, sometimes, something that never occurred to a child occurs to them when you are just not expecting. So, for example, I don't keep knives on my counter, but if it occurs to my 2 1/2 year old to drag a chair over to the counter for the first time when I happen to not be in the room (say, chas v'shalom, I needed the bathroom!) and then it occurs to her to open that drawer and take out a sharp knife and hurt herself -- then what? What if she decides to drag a chair over to the counter and decides to drink a bottle of dish soap?

Read carefully: A 2 1/2 -yr-old is TOO LITTLE to be left unsupervised for any length of time! Certainly not long enough to drag a chair, climb up, open drawers, etc.. If you need to go to the bathroom and can't wait, put him in a crib, strap him into a stroller or call a neighbor. It should not come as a surprise to anyone when their 2 1/2-yr-old has a new, dangerous idea that they never had before. This is entirely predictable, even if your 2 1/2-yr-old has been a perfect angel for 2 1/2 years. This really can't be emphasized enough.

allrgymama wrote:

Similarly, you can tell a child a thousand times that they cannot go into the street and they may listen, but all you need is one time for them to think to themselves (in whatever mental vocabulary they have), 'but really, what will happen if I DO step off the sidewalk?" and there you go. They're in the street.

You're not going to convince me that everyone has eyes on all of their children at all times. It just doesn't happen. Goodness, yesterday I watched three different four and five year olds decide that they couldn't be bothered to wait for someone to cross them and just ran across the street. I was stunned that at that age it would still be an issue, but there you go.

How does potching an 18-mo-old prevent her from running across the street at 5? IME, instilling the fear of Mommy's potch is a lot less likely to keep her safe long-term when Mommy isn't around. The problem isyYou haven't taught her a thing but you think you have. And 4- and 5-yr-olds shouldn't have been put in that position either! What kind of neighborhood do you live in?

allrgymama wrote:

Things. Happen.

Not. Five. Times.

allrgymama wrote:

And who said anything about wanting to sit down? I wanted her to learn to not go into the street so she would be safe.

Your baby should not have to "learn not to go into the street so she would be safe." Your baby should be kept safe by you. Period.

allrgymama wrote:

My original question wasn't 'What kind of stupidity deserves a potch?'

Actually, it was. You might want to review your op. It might help you understand the responses you got to your question. We can't know what is or isn't in your head. We can only know what you say, in the way that you say it.

(and she will edit it in 5, 4, 3...)

Onisa

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 10:43 am

Trying to be short.
People here are practical. The think. I want my kids be safe and nice but not tramotized.
Majority of parenting technics don't leave a child traumotized and sometimes help to avoid bad situations in future.
Potching and technics close to them often leave a child traumotized (proven by scince and personal experience) and only sometimes ( not always) help to avoid bad actions in future.

By comparing these two statements we can clearly see that it is always more preferable not to potch. Which means potching is never practical. If you dont have technic to teach a 18 not to run in the street but only by potching - means you really dont have technic because there is no assurance that potching will help.
Bthw, I was babysitting for a long time in a familly where they used vey firm word "no" to a child from the day one only in exseptional very dangerous cases.
She is 14 month she was never potched. If she hears word "no" she stops whatever she was doing and freezes.

While you are trying to take your childen away from dangerous situations people here are also trying to help you seeing that situation may esscalate, become uncontrollable, become less objective, become less working for a child and finally become dangerous on itself.

Why people are so worrying of their little bad habbits and bad habits of their children not because smoking one ciggarate can kill your laungs, or a child steeling a sweet from a jar can go to prison, but only because we know how bad habits easily become uncontrollable routine and that what leads to smth bad.

gp2.0

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 11:06 am

OK I hear you OP. You're already questioning if the potch was the right reaction to the "stupid" situation. Here's why I think its not OK to porch for being absentminded - its not something people (especially children) can control! Omg, I've suffered more than enough natural consequences for being absentminded and I'm still that way! Its not a behavior that immediately changes as a reaction to outside stimuli. Maybe it changes over time with practicing focused habits.

Here's why I and many other posters counsel the NEVER potch route - because too often parents end up with your dilemma - is this a potching situation? Until with time they stop questioning altogether and the potch becomes a reflex.

There is ALWAYS another way. Always. Always.

So view your dilemma as the rest of us are seeing it - a crossroads. Which way will you go? That's up to you. But even if you do continue potching I hope you'll stop with the waiting and choosing routine. I understand you thought of it as being rational and compassionate, but actually its humiliating and cruel. Thats the reason why I responded to your thread in the first place. Most of the time I ignore potching threads because its usually just shouting into the void.

marina

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 11:34 am

I spanked for running into the street. Always. Because a spank is a fast and immediate consequence that the child will remember and could save his or her life. I just don't think a time out chair or anything like that will remotely have the same effect.

I don't really care if the child thinks I don't love her or is miserable for the next half hour or learns to hit as a way of solving problems or whatever dramatic horrible consequences you might think result from 1-2 spanks over 2 years. I care if my child is dead. And I don't care about all the judgmental kumbaya peace and love mommies out there.

They can risk their kids lives by punishing with a time out, the same thing they'd do for a temper tantrum or dumping out the toys or whatever. And that's how I judge them- they risk their children's lives in the name of being a loving mom. And yes that's how I view many of you here. You risk your kids' lives.

Last edited by marina on Sun, Apr 06 2014, 11:41 am; edited 2 times in total

gold21

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 11:38 am

otsrock wrote:

I don't think you should feel proud of potching a baby...

I mean.... come on....

Would you potch a 6 month old for kicking you?

A baby is a baby is a baby.

gold21

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 11:41 am

marina wrote:

I spanked for running into the street. Always. Because a spank is a fast and immediate consequence that the child will remember and could save his or her life. I just don't think a time out chair or anything like that will remotely have the same effect.

I don't really care if the child thinks I don't love her or is miserable for the next half hour or learns to hit as a way of solving problems. I care if my child is dead. And I don't care about all the judgmental kumbaya peace and love mommies out there.

They can risk their kids lives by punishing with a time out, the same thing they'd do for a temper tantrum or dumping out the toys or whatever. And that's how I judge them- they risk their children's lives in the name of being a loving mom. And yes that's how I view many of you here. You risk your kids' lives.

A baby doesn't even understand the cause and effect of a potch. A baby needs to be supervised outside. They don't even know what the street is. They're clueless.

Jewishmom8

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 11:45 am

marina wrote:

I'm with you
when it comes to most things I do not potch.
but when it comes to things like going in the street. or touching the burners I do.

otsrock

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 12:08 pm

In response to the comment about hitting a 6 month old who kicks me, that is a completely irrelevant comparison. Please don't assume mothers who spank their children when THEY DO DANGEROUS things would spank their child in any situation the mother doesn't like. My husband and I see plenty of kids and teenagers who could have used a good porch to set them straight. This is American parenting and self gratification at it's worst. All pleasure, right? Well, I don't enjoy potching my child, even when it's something dangerous. And no, it's not pleasant. But some good things come from something unpleasant. Lfum Tzara Agra, anyone? This is what's best for my child. And no, potching a child who runs into a street/goes for the burner does not mean I'm not watching my child. Kids are quick. Babies are quicker. And yes, I am proud that I potch for dangerous situations. My child knows I love her. When she grows up, she won't be one of those children who "could have used a potch". I am curious how many of the potch naysayers are American born and bred (parents too). Where are your "everything must be pleasant all the time" hashkafas coming from?