Deleted | Imamother

amother

Fri, Apr 04 2014, 1:43 pm

Despite the tons of back and forth discussion, it still seems that the majority voted "no".

I voted "NO" because I assumed this referred to the thread about single girls having babies on their own. My "no" vote had much more to do with that than with the donor issue. For a couple with IVF, who chose sperm donation and raised the child in a home full of love, why not?

I had much more of a problem with the child being born to a mother who took such a drastic step, as OP indicated in her first post.

If the child was raised by a single parent due to something else - divorce or death, R"L - it would not be so much of an issue.

I just wanted to explain why I voted "no".

MaBelleVie

Fri, Apr 04 2014, 1:49 pm

Bruria wrote:

Certainly halacha is a lot more complex than simply declaring someone a mamzer without knowing the particularities of halacha also. It is not a simple question, so all types of angles should be seen instead of just saying a particular psak is correct or incorrect.

If you think about it, any person could be a mamzer because you can't know if the mother of the family your son/daughter would be marrying cheated or not!! Or their grandmothers, great grandmothers, generations and generations behind!!!

Actually in this case the only person who would for sure not be a mamzer is a ger if you think about it.

But, like someone else already said here, rabbis usually go out of there way to NOT find mamzerim.

Yes, that was precisely my point...

Not looking for a mamzer is your second paragraph. Covering your eyes and pretending that mamzerus doesn't exist isn't a mitzvah either. Someone thinking of using donor sperm should definitely receive halachic guidance.

Dolly Welsh

Fri, Apr 04 2014, 2:42 pm

allrgymama wrote:

The only issue I see here is a medical issue and that's one of things like tendencies towards heart disease or cancers and things like that (not things that Dor Yishorim checks for).

My understanding, though, is that most agencies do very careful and thorough background checks to provide the potential parents with as much information as possible?

Oh, you're not going to escape those two things. Everybody gets heart attacks and cancers. How do you think people die? They have to die somehow. Some just die of mere old age, but plenty die of something in particular. But it's really just that they lived long enough to get that something. Hearts give out. Cancer can be there. It's the way of the world.

It's only premature or unusual disease you wouldn't want, but the average Joe doesn't have those; but he will die some day of some kind of heart failure or cancer. The other big one is lungs. You have to leave somehow.

I wouldn't worry about every disease; we are all going to get something some day. No biggie.

Dolly Welsh

Fri, Apr 04 2014, 2:51 pm

If a kid is a proper sort, raised nicely in a Jewish home that you like, peering into his/her parents' sheets should not be done.

Including any IVF: I assume the worry there is maybe the petri dish got mixed up with another one?

Well, you really don't know the mother's virtue, either; maybe she liked the milkman? You don't know anything, really. Their marriage has to be accepted: there is always going to be an element of faith and trust.

It gets silly and stupid. The fact is, if the kid is the product of a legal Jewish marriage, that's all you are getting.

We cannot question his/her Mom's Ketuba. We have to make do with just two witnesses, the ones on the Ketubah. The Ketubah seals the propriety of the marriage and the kids. To start peering insults those who signed it, often very senior persons. Not good.

We cannot insist on hundreds of witnesses, one for each month of her fertile life, whether she went to mikvah or not each month, what they did in private, and on and on. Sorry, you only get the ketubah, and it's mere two witnesses. And what you can see about the kid, as a person. At least that's how it looks to me.

Consult a Rav of course.

amother

Fri, Apr 04 2014, 3:14 pm

amother wrote:

There's going to be almost 8 years between dc #1 and dc #2. Never was I on birth control, and this second child was indeed conceived naturally. A couple people did ask if it was ivf, and I told them to shove it where the sun don't shine, MYOB. Although, I wonder how many people are suspecting that?

If you have a child already, why would anyone suspect that? I think it's more of a suspicion if you never had kids before and then had one when you were in your 40s.

In many cases you would be right, but my husband is in remission, so the rumors are now rampant Sad

Mama Bear

Fri, Apr 04 2014, 4:45 pm

SOme of you are confusing the half sibling issue...

Let's say Mrs X had a daughter, using donor sperm, from a Jewish sperm donor Mr. Y. Mr. Y's donation was used by several Jewish families, single and married, who want to have children. Many years later, Daughter X is dating Bochur Z. Neither of them, or maybe only one of them, is aware that the other one was conceived by donor sperm. Both of them are a result of the donation of Mr. Y. They are biological siblings and are not aware of it.

Taht's the issue with marrying a sibling when using a donor.

Bruria

Fri, Apr 04 2014, 5:42 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

Yeah, but that still does not make anyone absolutely sure that they are not a mamzer, because there is no way to check past many generations before from basically any family. Even cohanim nowadays, who can say for sure that they are cohanim and not chalalim?
The point is, we assume a person is not a mamzer, unless there is real evidence, not the opposite.
Just like we assume that cohanim nowadays are cohanim, and not chalalim.

freidasima

Sat, Apr 05 2014, 3:59 pm

Folks, here's a heads up from an oldie.
After the Holocaust a lot of things happened. A LOT of things. Also during.
And after the war no one had any documents. People moved to EY and to America claiming that they were a married couple but they had never had chuppa/kiddushin. People claimed that their spouse was Jewish when they weren't, not halochically and not in any sense. They were the non Jew who saved them and they married after the war.

You can NOT imagine how many cases there were like that, where people just said something and no one knew them because everyone from their area had been killed or they had been very young before the war and no one was left who knew what happened to them during the war.

And..it never got listed.....and ...their kids were born and married as Jewish and no one was wiser.

I personally know at least five cases like this, and as they are intimate friends I also know the truth. In one case it was the mother who was Jewish so she figured that her son was Jewish. Her son married a Jewish girl so the kids were Jewish and those kids are now having kids.

In another case the mother wasn't Jewish but so what...she listed herself as Jewish when they came here in 1948. The kids were not Jewish by law but...three were boys and they married Jewish girls so THEIR kids are Jewish. One was a girl and her kids weren't Jewish. But...her grandchildren who are listed as Jews and think they are Jews are getting married now...to Jews...and somehow it worked out that they are boys and only one girl again and they are marrying Jews so...the next generation..

And another friend whose grandmother was raped during the war and had a baby. Who is the father? A nazi? Probably...the "baby" is now 70 years old and a great grandfather and almost no one knows. My mother knew and told me as she was a friend of the grandmother and of course guess what.

AFTER THE WAR NO ONE TALKED. NO ONE SPILLED THE BEANS.

And so...there are lots of good frum yidden who are actually non Jews...and they after a few generations, are so mixed into the Jewish people so..

What I am trying to say is, that with all this checking of yichus and background and this and that...when it comes to Ashkenazi Jews who went through the war (or european sefaradi who went through the war in some cases) do not ask too many questions.

Just let things be. The Ribono Shel Olam wants it that way, not for us to be policemen and ruin people's lives.
Use a kula. Don't ask. Don't tell.

And thus, knowing what I know, donor sperm is just fine. Geirim are just fine. BT is just fine. Axe murderers are not justfine. Children of axe murderers....a hard question. But if my kid brings one home already? And he/she is a fine mensch? If they have a different derekh than the father axe murderer? Hard call. But probably fine.

Raisin

Sat, Apr 05 2014, 6:17 pm

If the parents consulted a Rav I think I would be fine with it.

I'm not so sure a daughter of a non Jewish sperm donor can't marry a cohen. After all, the non Jewish father was not around the child growing up. She grew up with a Jewish father. I think a girl (daughter of a non Jewish man) adopted before three can also marry a cohen? Am I right?

What FS said is also true. If you want to be guaranteed someones 100% Jewish, only let your kids marry gerim or children of gerim. No questions there. (assuming they converted with reputable Beis din and have been frum ever since)

amother

Sat, Apr 05 2014, 11:55 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

I believe the children have a right to know, in case the parents are no longer around to do research when shidduchim become relevant.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 12:31 am

Mama Bear wrote:

First, it's best not to use Jewish sperm. There's less of a chance of that happening. I understand that in the states one can't ask for a certain religion? Not even in a private sperm bank? (maybe if one asks for a donor father from a certain ancestry, the chances are lower of him being Jewish)

Second, the sperm bank keeps records. You don't need a name, just a serial number.

Third, yes, I personally believe the child should know. The problem is if it's a close minded shidduch community, the child won't be forthcoming with this info, and will not tell his/her date.....who may be in the exact same situation.
Solution? Not to be close minded and foster an atmosphere where people feel they need to hide this.

amother

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 1:43 am

FS many cases are around like this in the US where families are quiet about their non Jewish background. However there are still many who do find out and are not meshadech with them.
I know that in our chasidish family, we dig back 5,6,7 or more generations.
There are people aware and knowing, and would never allow their children to marry into certain families for all kinds of reasons.
Sephardim are also very makpid to find out the yichus before allowing their kids to marry.
I am not at all shocked, I am sadly sure what you write is true.

mirror

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 8:07 pm

amother wrote:

Sadly there is a Sephardi older guy who is dating a non-Jewish girl who wants to convert, but his Sefardi community won't accept Geirim. So he is stuck in limbo dating this non-Jewish girl. Why he can't convert to Ashkenaz (are we so terrible?) is beyond me.