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Need help disciplining toddler



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amother


 

Post Sat, Apr 05 2014, 10:51 pm
ok so first off I am asking for practical ideas going forward. please no yells of abuse or worse. thank you!

so I have a 2.5yo and a baby (half a year). my older son is forever hurting the baby, even right when we are in middle of lavishing attention on him and ignoring the baby who is playing by himself. due to bein hazmanim, dh has been home with both kids and has had enough of seeing this happen amd having to deal with it all day.

till now I give him a 2min time out whenever he on purpose hurts the baby. he knows he is wrong and that hurting=time out (he will hurt and then go to his crib)
at one time I tried warning and then hitting him (happened 2x) but that didnt either work. next time he hit the baby he said I hurt baby now mommy potch me-so I stopped.

I have just been at a loss. I tried ignoring, walking away with the baby, nothing nothing nothing. I tried lavishing the praise when he kisses or hugs or in general is nice to the baby, hasnt worked. often he will kiss and be nice and then suddenly bop the baby's head.

so dh started lightly hitting his hand when he hurt in addition to time outs. lightly as in ds is more insulted then hurt. I dont think its working and I really dont want to hit and I havent been doing it.
today he was walking by the baby and just kicked him in the face. I picked him up plopped him in his crib for time out and went to the baby. when it was time to come out dh went to get him. next thing I knew he was holding him and had basically told him that you are not allowed to hurt the baby. and was insisting that ds repeat it back. of course being a stubborn 2yo ds was not. after a few minutes of just holding him and not letting him go down dh said if you dont say it you will get an outside time out. one of my neighbors does this, puts her kid on the back porch. so of course after getting into this battle of wills (which u should never do with a toddler) dh puts him in between the locked screen door and the back door. (theres a small space.) he did put on his coat first. he told him to knock when he was ready to say I will not hurt baby. I was like not happening. once he closed the door I told dh that this a battle of wills and ds will win. and I dont think this is the way to do it. dh asked if I had better ideas, but truthfully, im all out. after a few min dh let ds in and ds was totally not phased, told me with a big smile, totty close the door, I turn around and around. of course he never said he wont hurt the baby.

then a little later he was giving the baby a hug and dh said yay you made a good choice and were nice, lets get a candy. he then ld him whenever you are nice to the baby you will get a candy. I have told ds good choice and hugged him and made a big deal abt being nice, but I think rewarding with food and telling him every time is not good idea.
but dh thinks it may work and that he has to stop hurting the baby, its just unacceptable and cannot go on, even if its normal and age appropriate. he just has to stop constantly hurting the baby.

other then calling cps on dh, what advice do you have for us? what can we do to get the message accross to ds. he does understand alot. he knew what we wanted from him, just didnt want to say it. he knows hurting is wrong, but truthfully I think he cant cotrol himslf, which I know is age appropriate. or what should I tell dh to do? he thinks time outs are totally not effective and I agree, but think its the best option so far.
thank you for not just screaming abuse at me (ds is our first and we are trying to figure ot out), and for coming up with other ideas that will hopefully work.
any book recommendations are always appreciated. thank you.
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chocolate chips




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Apr 05 2014, 11:01 pm
I have similar problems.
B"h he doesn't hurt the baby too much but he tries to touch him a lot and doesn't realize he is delicate and not a doll.

I actually started telling him to treat his dolls nicely too so he gets the idea and when he hurts the baby he gets a telling off and if it is bad then time out.
At this age it is so hard to know what they understand and just ignore and what they really don't get.

Honestly I have no advice. Treats might work but it doesn't have to be candies or sweet things. I give him a slice of apple and crackers for 'treats'. It definitely is a good suggestion to try give him nice things for being nice as opposed to only focusing on the bad. At this age kisses and hugs is not a treat for doing something good.
If you have something you give him (for example my son gets a chocolate every morning when he goes down to the bus or he loves having a special cereal bar from the UK) then you can use that as a punishment. So if my son hurts the baby or acts up when getting dressed in the morning I give him a warning he won't get chocolate and the next bad thing he doesn't get it.

The first few times it will include some tantrums but eventually they get that you mean business.

And just btw beating or slapping is abuse. Hitting or lightly potching for the shock factor is often the only way to get through to a child. For example is my son throws a heavy toy near the baby or pushes the baby out his seat (he only did that once b"h) or runs into the road, he gets a light potch on his hand or tush. The shock factor made sure he doesn't do that again.
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amother


 

Post Sat, Apr 05 2014, 11:07 pm
First let me give you some hugs. I would recommend a parenting class. I never took one, but looking back I wish I did.

My DSs are 20 months apart. My older DS started hurting the baby when he started playing on the floor. It became out of control. Timeouts, hitting and bribing didnt work.

I was very "lucky". Older DS has therapy. The special ed therapist did try to help. I got a wake up call that I need to do something when DS got kicked out of playgroup at 2.5 . He went elsewhere and had play therapy for a while. He never BH had any more violent episodes in school. (he was originally in an environment that allowed such behavior to develop, the kids were left unsupervised for some time)

At home was another story. I went to family counseling. I learned that my DS isnt a typical 2 year old, therefore I have to change my expectations. I cant put the baby on the floor and go to the bathroom, I cant give my baby a book or toy that DS uses. I needed to praise DS alot. He needed to be touched alot. Hugging is better than potching. I thought it was a sensory thing, but I was told it was behavior.

My Dr said if you dont deal with behavior issues when the kids are little, it is way harder when they are older. My DS is 9 now. He still has some issues with his behavior at home, basically listening BH. He does fight with his younger brother occasionally, but they are best friends.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Apr 05 2014, 11:10 pm
Hugs. I hope nobody will scream abuse at you when you are both trying and at your wits' end, and asking for help. I agree with you that locking him onto the porch, bribing him with candy, and potching or lightly slapping him are all not the best way to parent.

Have you noticed any patterns? See if you can figure out when he is getting aggressive, so that you can be proactive rather than reactive. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. The usual acronym to keep in mind is HALT. Is your DS reacting to being Hungry, Angry, Tired, or Lonely? If so, what can you do to prevent the aggression before it happens the next time?

Second, what can you do to keep the baby out of reach more often?

Third, can you look in your area for parenting classes for further tips and support?
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amother


 

Post Sat, Apr 05 2014, 11:12 pm
BTW- im the amother above whose DS is now 9.

We used to potch my DS for hurting others. We stopped almost completely when DS told us we arent "hitting hard enough". It was a wake up call for us. DS hurt someone and he think we are hurting him in return. Is that the lesson we want to teach him? As DS got older we had conversations about his behavior and appropriate punishment.
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mummiedearest




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Apr 05 2014, 11:20 pm
my 2 yr old likes to hit me/pinch me for the "ouch" reaction. when she does that, I firmly take her off me, put her on the floor, and tell her "no! don't hit/pinch mommy! it's not nice!" she gets very upset when I say no. she generally starts crying, at which point we discuss her feelings. "are you upset?" "yes." "why are you upset?" "I dunno." "are you upset because I said no?" "yes." "would you like a hug and kiss?" "yes." hug and kiss, episode over.

is your older child verbal? can you discuss with him why he hurts the baby? can you make him a sticker chart for not hurting the baby? can you let him have a sticker every time he wants to hurt the baby but doesn't? if he can tell you somehow that this is what happened, shower him with praise. some kids that age are capable of walking over to the baby, getting the hand in a ready-to-hit position, and saying, "NO! WE DON'T HIT BABY!"

talk, talk, talk to your child. combine negative reinforcement with positive. if you give him a sticker chart, let him pick the sticker and put it on the chart.

oh, also, keep the baby off the floor when big brother is awake. a playpen might be best for the baby.
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amother


 

Post Sat, Apr 05 2014, 11:26 pm
thank you for the replies so far!
cc I hope we can find some ideas here.
amother- (((hugs))) that sounds hard. dh is in a playgroup and he does have occasional aggresive moments, usually a time out is enough his morah says, and hes no where close to being kicked out. she also says that he is a little more impulsive then the other kids in his group. but dealable.
imasinger-sometimes he can be halt oi like that) but often time not. like this morning while dh was in shul, he had just eaten breakfast, woken for the day, was happily playing with me and the baby was sitting off to the side, when he went to the baby and gave him a hug and then-wham- pushed him down and tried jumping onto him. (I caught him from jumping on him)
there is usually no "motive" for hurting the baby, other then him being there. I never leave him alone with the baby, I often put the baby in the high chair, but he will still reach up and whack him. or throw something at him. what really gets me is one second hes so nice with him and playing games, blowing his tummy yo make him laugh, tickling him, playing peekaboo, hugging or kissing him, giving him toys and then he finishes it off then a kick, hit, or push. and even if im holding the baby he isnt safe. I have read ds a book while nursing and he will be holding a toy or another book and then in middle just hit the baby with it. or be playing near me and reach out and bam. its like we cant have them in the same room even if I am right there. baby still gets hurt. and the baby loves ds!! whenever he sees him his face lights up and he smiles and coos and forget abt feeding him when ds is around he just has eyes for him. and we tell him look baby loves you, he loves when you are nice and play with him.... and ds is so happy abt it, but then.... he just cant control himself!
thanks again!!!
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amother


 

Post Sat, Apr 05 2014, 11:33 pm
mummiedearest- he is very very verbal. when I hit him on his leg for kicking he said to me no mommy I kick with this leg (the other one) and when I hit that one he got sad faced. this was why I stopped hitting since it was the same reaction with time outs, he would hit the baby and then say I go time out. or even say it before/as he hit. or as soon as he does something he shouldnt (hurting or anything else) he covers his face or runs to hide under the table or behing the couch.
stickers may be a good idea.
we have no room for a playpen. I do put the baby in his crib, but ds will throw things at him.
we do tell or yell no, but it hasnt made any effect that we have noticed. except that he runs and hides.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Apr 05 2014, 11:47 pm
OP, you may be too worried about his pointing out the other leg or saying "I go time out" and assuming that if he is volunteering to go, it is ineffective.

That may not be true.

I have what I call my "toilet training theory of learnng", developed when my ODD was at that stage. First, you don't know what you are doing in your diapers. Then, you understand, and begin to be taught that there is a different way. Then, you try to put the action of sitting, and the action of producing together. Then, you get that they are supposed to go together, but you make mistakes. You may say, "I had an accident." Then, you learn to anticipate the accidents, and run to get there on time. Gradually, the success rate improves until you don't have to think about it at all. The skill has been internalized.

I believe that all skills are learned like this. Your DS may be at the stage where he knows that aggression is wrong, but he is realizing after the fact, hence his willingness to accept the slap on the wrist or the time out.

There is evidence showing that even a mild slap can confuse a child who is being told "no hitting." I'd say stick with the time outs. Be sure he has nothing to do or play with when he is put in one. Reward him for taking the time out nicely (verbal praise plus stickers towards something desirable). Yes, even though he attacked the baby. Once he has taken the time out, the slate is clean, and he is being positively reinforced for following the rules.

If things don't improve, you might want to have him evaluated. But mybet is that they will improve.
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Onisa




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 1:11 pm
I dont have kids and toddlers also. But.. ive been working in the play group ( ive run away from being there) one of the reasons that the rule was - no crying - no problem. If one child plays with other child and then suddenly hits, bites or smth of that sort and the reaction of the other one is anything but not crying than it is ok.
I dont know your playgroup rules but could be that your 2 yo really hardly distinguish game and hearting.
First, he doesnt understand how fragile baby is, secondly the baby for him is more like toy than human and thirdly he may be guessing from your looks or child crying that he has done smth wrong.
These all have to be talked over. What can you do and what you can't. Very descriptive and many times. Emphasize on what you can do, give him more and more options ( seems to me that he wants to communicate with toddler so he uses everything he knows).
And yes, talk a lot about how baby is a real human, that he also eats, and also thinks and mostly the same as mother, father and children in playgroup.
Im saying that because when my brother was little I was thinking of him as a doll or a cat but not a human. He didnt walk, talk or anything. Surely rules of human interaction didnt apply to him.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Apr 07 2014, 1:09 am
my dd is 18 months. she loves to pull my hair, pinch my face, and loves scratching the baby's head (he is 3 months). she KNOWS it hurts - she hears me scream in pain or say no, hears baby cry. she doesn't talk yet. she broke 2 pairs of my glasses (each one was $400) in a way that is not fixable. we told her again and again she can't pull off glasses but she does anyway. she loves climbing on the table and throwing everything off of it. we try to push the chairs in or take them away from the table but she pushes them in. it is dangerous since she can fall off the table ch'v or table can collapse. some things I dont fight over - she loves running around naked, fine. but safety and danger are different. she KNOWS it is bad but I think she likes the attention or reaction from hurting. I have red scratches on my face and other marks from where she pinches, scratches. I try to keep her nails short but she doesn't always let me cut them. I want 5 minutes of quiet to nurse the baby to sleep but she will yell next to the couch/bed so baby can't sleep. I explain wait quietly and say shhh and then I can read to you and take care of you but if you wake baby up, I can't. it is super frustrating. I lose it and yell at her. dh is very patient and he is also very firm with her. I wish there was a way to discipline toddlers when they can't communicate or understand.

she is such a good kid though. she loves helping and always wants to make us happy. she just does these things also. I dont know if it is because she is sad or bored or thinks it is funny when we yell. I give her tons of praise and positive attention, spend tons of time with, I don't know why she does this.

before I had kids, I was a laidback, calm person. now I sometimes am a screaming maniac and an uptight wreck. I wish my toddler didn't make me crazy. but it is hard to have 2 crying kids and while you nurse the baby your toddler is climbing on the table and running on top of it. you can't put down your baby every 2 seconds while your nursing to stop toddler from dangerous activities.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Apr 07 2014, 1:18 am
[quote="amother"]my dd is 18 months. she loves to pull my hair, pinch my face, and loves scratching the baby's head (he is 3 months). she KNOWS it hurts - she hears me scream in pain or say no, hears baby cry. she doesn't talk yet. she broke 2 pairs of my glasses (each one was $400) in a way that is not fixable. we told her again and again she can't pull off glasses but she does anyway. she loves climbing on the table and throwing everything off of it. we try to push the chairs in or take them away from the table but she pushes them in. it is dangerous since she can fall off the table ch'v or table can collapse. some things I dont fight over - she loves running around naked, fine. but safety and danger are different. she KNOWS it is bad but I think she likes the attention or reaction from hurting. I have red scratches on my face and other marks from where she pinches, scratches. I try to keep her nails short but she doesn't always let me cut them. I want 5 minutes of quiet to nurse the baby to sleep but she will yell next to the couch/bed so baby can't sleep. I explain wait quietly and say shhh and then I can read to you and take care of you but if you wake baby up, I can't. it is super frustrating. I lose it and yell at her. dh is very patient and he is also very firm with her. I wish there was a way to discipline toddlers when they can't communicate or understand.

she is such a good kid though. she loves helping and always wants to make us happy. she just does these things also. I dont know if it is because she is sad or bored or thinks it is funny when we yell. I give her tons of praise and positive attention, spend tons of time with, I don't know why she does this.

before I had kids, I was a laidback, calm person. now I sometimes am a screaming maniac and an uptight wreck. I wish my toddler didn't make me crazy. but it is hard to have 2 crying kids and while you nurse the baby your toddler is climbing on the table and running on top of it. you can't put down your baby every 2 seconds while your nursing to stop toddler from dangerous activities.[/quote

I totally understand and u and im in the same situation as you. I lose control with my toddler yell and sometimes even hit her Crying . My husband works long hours and bedtime is murderer especially when the baby wants to nurse and toddler wants to be held and all my attention.
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