Can someone please clear this up for me?

amother

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 12:25 pm

I was talking to my friend today about how it is written in the Torah (in Devarim, and also in Shemot), that children pay for the sins of their parents and grandparents, specifically the fourth generation.
All kinds of punishment can be inflicted on them as a result of the sins of their parents/grandparents.
I have read conflicting ideas on this, some say that it is true that the children are punished with the parents, others say that it is not true and that each person is responsible for their own sins only.

However it does seem that there is a clear consensus that a concept exists whereby children pay for the sins of their parents.

My friend interpreted it as being, if G-d punishes a child, their wicked parent will be the one who suffers, because they love the child. But then why is the innocent child punished?

I feel that maybe the child does deserve to be punished, but as we know punishment is a cleansing.

Or maybe the punishment is a prevention, because this child can be the one to put a stop to the cycle of sins?

acccdac

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 12:39 pm

The one thing you are missing here is also the concept of teshuva/correction

If a child continues his parents sins then he will be punished "for his fathers sin" but because it was his sin as well.

If the child fixes the issue then the child will not be punished.

We are technically all suffering in gulus for sins that were committed by bais sheini. However, we are just as culpable for their sins because we have not corrected the problem

amother

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 12:44 pm

One helpful idea I have heard is that an innocent child who suffers is probably a gilgul of someone who needed to rectify something.

However, I just read an article (in the Yated, it was about zivugim) that mostly women don't come back. I also never got a 100% clear answer if a neshama is male or female or can switch in another lifetime.

(Well, I am pretty sure I was here before because of the very vivid nightmares I have about the Holocaust, and there was recently an article about this and it seems to be pretty common.)

cinnamon

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 12:55 pm

Rashi there says that Hashem will only punish the son If he also sins in the same sin.

The RALBAG interprets this to mean that because the whole purpose of punishment is to make us do teshuva then if a person sins he needs a certain punishment to make him return but if he saw his father do the same sin he will need a stronger punishment to make him return and if this sin is already a mesora from his grandfather he will need an even stronger punishment to make him do teshuva. So it is as if a person gets punished for the sins of his father but in fact it is to make him do teshuva and not as punishment for his father's sins.

The RAVA interprets in differently, he says that if a man sins Hashem doesn't punish him right away but waits to see if maybe his son will not sin and the son's good deeds will be a kapara for his father, if the son sins Hashem waits another generation and another and if all four generations sin then Hashem punishes all four sinners and doesn't wait any longer.

In both interpretations the son doesn't suffer for the sins of his father but only for his own sins.

naturalmom5

Sun, Apr 06 2014, 1:02 pm

amother wrote:

I just read in a shalom bayus Sefer this morning that the Arizal says that sometimes a husband and wife come back in another gilgul as the opposite gender they were and remarriy each other
The husband is now the wife and vice versa to rectify matters the first time they were married