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Sinning for a mitzva
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 11:29 am
what's your thought ...

is it like stealing from the rich to give to the poor ?
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 11:33 am
Generally it's wrong. E.g. one can't do lulav and esrog with a stolen set, that kind of thing. I can't think of a case where it could be right, but that doesn't mean much.
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Eishes Chaim




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 11:35 am
The only thing I can think of is - lying for the sake of shalom, but then again, it's pretty complicated, to know what exactly falls under the category of shalom.
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zohar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 11:39 am
In general, Judaism doesn't believe in "the ends justify the means." But maybe there are situations that it is called for - I don't know.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 2:50 pm
Pink Fridge, that's because it says velakachtem lachem pri etz hadar."Lachem" --- it has to be yours.

I think if you make a sukkah out of stolen boards, it's okay. I don't remember, but it's not the same as the lulav. Even with the hadassim, my vague memory is that if even if you know they're hot, if you make sure to buy from a third party, you're okay. Not that it's recommended, but you get credit for the mitzvah.

I should look this up, but I've been procrastinating all day today, and need to get some cleaning done!
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November




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 2:53 pm
greenfire wrote:
what's your thought ...

is it like stealing from the rich to give to the poor ?

Greenfire, did you have something specific in mind?
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amother


 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 3:52 pm
What about inviting people over for Shabbos who will break it to get to you, but then keep it in your house and even say Brachot on all the food, and then possibly become religious eventually as well?
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 4:06 pm
amother wrote:
What about inviting people over for Shabbos who will break it to get to you, but then keep it in your house and even say Brachot on all the food, and then possibly become religious eventually as well?


In most cases it's fine, but aylor for guidelines. People are usually told to offer accommodations so the guest has a real option of staying and not traveling on shabbos.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 4:34 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Pink Fridge, that's because it says velakachtem lachem pri etz hadar."Lachem" --- it has to be yours.

I think if you make a sukkah out of stolen boards, it's okay. I don't remember, but it's not the same as the lulav. Even with the hadassim, my vague memory is that if even if you know they're hot, if you make sure to buy from a third party, you're okay. Not that it's recommended, but you get credit for the mitzvah.

I should look this up, but I've been procrastinating all day today, and need to get some cleaning done!


no, lulav hagazul is assur b/c you can't do a mitzvah with something obtained through an aveirah. You also don't take a harlot's money to buy a sheep for a korban, etc.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 4:41 pm
there's so many examples that come to mind ...

how about saying tehillim & then falling asleep with it in your hand only to wake up with it still in your hands before washing negel vasser ...

having someone call or drive another person somewhere so they can celebrate shabbos or yom tov ...

[I had thought of others but I forget them just now]
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 4:42 pm
according to some - you cannot 'steal' tree branches for your s'chach or the succah is not kosher ...
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 4:49 pm
greenfire wrote:
there's so many examples that come to mind ...

how about saying tehillim & then falling asleep with it in your hand only to wake up with it still in your hands before washing negel vasser ...

having someone call or drive another person somewhere so they can celebrate shabbos or yom tov ...

[I had thought of others but I forget them just now]


You should probably not hold a tehillim if you know you're going to fall asleep and drop it on the floor or whatever.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 4:54 pm
borrowing a car without someone's knowledge to do a mitzva
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 5:02 pm
greenfire wrote:
borrowing a car without someone's knowledge to do a mitzva


AFAIK that is not allowed.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 5:26 pm
Marina, do you remember the case in Sukkah where the reish galuta stole wood from some old lady to build a sukkah, and it was ruled to be a valid sukkah?
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 5:28 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
You should probably not hold a tehillim if you know you're going to fall asleep and drop it on the floor or whatever.


I can't sleep without it Study
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 5:33 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Marina, do you remember the case in Sukkah where the reish galuta stole wood from some old lady to build a sukkah, and it was ruled to be a valid sukkah?


No, he was told he had to pay her for the monetary value of the wood.
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 10:47 pm
No, you can't. Below quote is from yeshiva.co.il


הרוצה לקיים מצווה ע"י שעובר עבירה, אינה נחשבת למצווה (הסוגיא בסוכה ל., בסוגיא זו האריכו שדי חמד ח"ד מ-עז (עמוד 146 והלאה) ושאגת אריה סימנים צו עד צט).
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Volunteer




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 11:33 pm
grace413 wrote:
No, you can't. Below quote is from yeshiva.co.il


הרוצה לקיים מצווה ע"י שעובר עבירה, אינה נחשבת למצווה (הסוגיא בסוכה ל., בסוגיא זו האריכו שדי חמד ח"ד מ-עז (עמוד 146 והלאה) ושאגת אריה סימנים צו עד צט).


Yes, I think you're right. The idea that a person can fulfill the mitzvah of sukkah with stolen goods has to do with the fact that the mitzvah is to dwell in the sukkah; the building is not part of the commandment technically, so it doesn't directly affect the act of sitting in the sukkah. Also, when a thief steals raw materials and builds them into a structure, the thief (albeit illegally) acquires the materials, so the sukkah is technically his. He still has to return what he stole, but not by tearing down his structure and returning that wood that was already cut; instead he has to return money equal in value to what he stole. Obviously, the whole thing is immoral, and I'll bet the Ribono Shel Olam doesn't view it too kindly to say the least.
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lifesagift




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 06 2014, 11:36 pm
מצוה בא בעבירה
King Shaul with the Amaleki sheep.
Theres an expression; the trick is not to tell right from wrong, but the better of the good, and the worse of the bad (or something like this).
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