I miss my childhood Seders so much :-(

amother

Thu, Apr 17 2014, 2:57 am

Please help... Will I ever get used to this? My childhood Seders were so full of rich tradition and niggunim, both when we were with my mother's parents and later in our own home with my father leading. I loved it. I loved pesach. Loved the Seders. Looked forward to them. Was sad when they were over but they kept my heart full. Dh is so different but I mean SOOOOOO different, like you could not possibly get any more different. He doesn't have a special singing voice or sense of tune, but I think I could deal with that, except he doesn't even have any interest in trying. Even when I beg him to do some singing, it always degenerates into mumbling. The entire Haggadah is mumbled. It makes my head hurt. It was only us this year, so I tried to lead some singing but he wouldn't follow, we kept competing. Plus, he has no traditions or minhagim, not only that but he never resists an opportunity to "debunk" minhagim of dubious origin. Normally I am cool with that but given my emotional Seder memories I wish he would just lay off. I told him so but he doesn't get it. He gets a kick out of doing things purely technically halachically, which again I respect a lot but when it comes to the Seder it feels stripped down. I was looking up the order to put things on the Seder plate and he intervened with a drasha about how there really originally was no such thing as a Seder plate and we should just plop everything on the table any which way. And so on and so forth... The straw that broke my back was kos shel Eliyahu. Now I 100% get that there are many who don't go for the whole Elijah visiting each Seder story - I'm one of them. But my oldest is in school now and came home having learned all these things and so excited to do them all and dh basically threw cold water on the whole thing. I hated every minute. I set up a beautiful Seder and my kids were adorable and I hated the whole thing. I can't stand the idea that this is what it's going to be like for the rest of my life.

There is no going back, my grandparents are all either deceased or too old to have a Seder, and my father is gone too. Dh's father is even more blah than he is - not quite as iconoclastic but doesn't even try to sing anything, no minhagim, purely technical. I like being home in general but after such miserable Seders I'd almost like to invite myself to an uncle or something next year for a taste of something more familiar, but dh would never go for it.

I just can't stop crying over this. It's like a piece of me (and my father) dies more every pesach.

imasinger

Thu, Apr 17 2014, 6:39 am

The comparison sounds so bleak, so stark. I can see why your current seders hurt so much.

Three things I want to say that I hope will help a little.

1. Talk. Whatever communication you have had with your DH has not been enough. Somehow, he has not heard and understood you. If you want to share more with us about what you said, how he responded, and about some more successful times on different matters when you felt heard by him, maybe we can help. The "competing voices" and coldness to a child's enthusiasm could be just obliviousness, or it could be a sign that the marriage would benefit from some counseling.

2. Time. Nothing stays static. How long have you been on your own for sedarim? Maybe you have already succeeded in making some small changes, and it just may take a few more years before the cumulative effect kicks in. Try listing the changes you want made (more singing, more discussion, etc). List them in order of their importance to you, and then again in order of how much change it would require from your DH to implement them. Decide on one or two things you might be able to do next year, and quietly develop a Ten Year Plan.

3. Your memories are not dead. Your father lives on in them. You do not have to depend on your DH in order to treasure them and share them. Even in a worst case scenario, where your DH remains completely and utterly inflexible, you can share the stories and sing the songs as you clean the house and get ready for seder.

There is an interesting power to music. When it is unfamiliar, it can make certain types of people very awkward and uncomfortable. But once they have heard something enough, they come to like it.

If you sing your favorite melodies often enough in front of your DH, he will probably forget that he didn't always know them, and eventually start humming them along with you. And so will the kids.

Do not ever give someone else the power to control what is inside you. Your feelings, your memories, your love for your childhood -- these are yours. You can choose when and how to speak of them. But nobody can take them away from you.

Yesterday, I served a nut cake I made. It was my friend's European grandmother's recipe. We had a lot of guests, and one of them, the father of a different friend, in his 70's, told me this. "Your nut cake brought tears to my eyes. My grandmother used to make that same kind of cake, and serve it to me when I was little. I haven't tasted anything like it it in decades. Thank you for bringing back that piece of my childhood."

If one taste of cake could conjure such powerful and old memories, just imagine how deeply they were ingrained, and how long they stayed alive without any "help." You will not lose yours. They are not dying bit by bit. The pain you feel at the contrast between this year and your childhood shows just how strong those memories are. Treasure them, and may your DH come to appreciate them.

Notsobusy

Thu, Apr 17 2014, 9:27 am

I have the same problem. Even at my parents house my dh would just go ahead on his own and want me to join him, I hated it. When my kids got a little older and my husband didn't do anything with them at my parents seder, I decided we needed to make our own seder. Now he involves them, listens to their dvar torahs and things. He still doesn't do the singing, I sing with them and he just does his own thing. It really bothers me, he sees how they love it and he still won't sing.
This year we had male company the first seder and I got sick for the second seder and was on the couch for most of it. So no singing for me. So upset. I got into bed before hallel and couldn't sleep because dh was singing hallel and nirtza with the kids. Go figure.

amother

Thu, Apr 17 2014, 9:28 am

I also felt my seder was so boring. My kids were falling asleep out of boredom. The second seder I took a little control. I gave out treats to the kids for anything they said or sang. I also said a story on dayanu. My father had funny and intresting stories that kept us entertained. My DH just wants the seder over ASAP. It sad. I worked so hard with no help. I would love to invite family over for pesach to make it more exciting, but we can't afford the extra expense. I can't afford to fly to my parents and my inlaws are not an option.

amother

Thu, Apr 17 2014, 10:08 am

I have a non-singing DH too. Tone deaf. He's also not so intuitive about involving the kids. He's a wonderful guy, just leading a seder isn't where he shines. So, when the kids were younger, I structured things very carefully. I gave DH candies to give out to anyone who asks a good question. During Maggid, DH and I would take turns; he would quietly read the Haggadah to himself while I talked about seder concepts with the kids, then he would take a turn talking with them about the Haggadah while I caught up in the Haggadah. It worked fine. Now we don't need to do that because the kids have so many divrei Torah they want to say over, but I make sure to still emphasize the ikkarim of the seder: how much Hashem loves us, why He took us out, etc. Now they're old enough to have nice discussions about why so many Yidden didn't leave Mitzrayim; I love asking questions and seeing them really think. And now that they're getting older, they sing. I had such nachas listening to my 11 year old and my 9 year old singing Hallel this year. Finally we have beautiful singing at our sedarim!!

amother

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 12:09 am

Op here. I love all the ideas of how to improve things, in fact I thought of a few of those too, but the problem is dh doesn't let me do any of it! Like I said, he drowned me out with his mumbling even when I tried to do some singing myself, not asking anything of him. I have tried to talk to him about it, he just doesn't get it at all. His parents were geirim who came to Judaism from a totally intellectual angle and that's how he was raised, he has no comprehension of what it means and how necessary it is for kids to have a flavorful multidimensional experience. He does a but if storytelling and that's it. He doesn't even have a bad voice, just zero interest in songs.

amother

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 12:38 am

Hi OP
I can totally relate. My family sings everything, we have chazzanim in the family and everything is sang beutifully and it truly enhances the whole seder. When I got married, I married into a family where they were newish BT's , fil didnt like to sing ANYTHING, it was so miserable I could have cried at that first seder a couple months after we got married.
Since then, I have spent the past almost twenty years trying to convince dh to sing some stuff. the worst years were the years that my parents came to us for seder, my dh was constantly thingking that my father was trying to take over the leading of the seder with his trying to sing some stuff. dh hated it, my dad hated it. nowadays, my oldest children are teenagers, and a couple of them will sing a bit, dh does something that makes me so mad, he gets up adn starts clearing the table before we have finished the last two songs. He says that a) he doesnt like to sing and b) like the thread abut the rationalist husband, chad gadya makes no sense to him and he doesnt like any of hte allegories that he has ever learned about it, so why should he sit down.... wish I knew what to do with this. it really hurts me and my kids.

OP, just thought that you should know that you are not alone. One year, I bought a cd before pesach of seder tunes and played it a lot around the house when dh and the kids were home, so tha they were familiar with te tunes. Maybe you could try that?
lot s of hugs to you xxx

imasinger

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 6:36 am

amother wrote:

So, you said "I know that this is something you don't see the importance of, but it means so much to me," and he didn't care?

That's not just about differing backgrounds. That's about power and control.

amother

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 8:37 am

I had a seder with 2 khallas who went through the same thing as you. One khallah was used to singing and was upset she couldn't sing ma nishtana as she always did. The other was concerned there was fish at the seder. It was interesting watching them both adjusting to new minhagim.

I liked my childhood seder better than my married seder also. I like my childhood shul better also. DH has everyone read every word out loud which creates too much noise IMO. I strongly prefer the singing version with a leader reading. I don't try to change the seder to what my vision of how a seder should be. My father had his sewers and now DH has his.

amother

Fri, Apr 18 2014, 9:23 am

My DH runs a beautiful seder, but I still get terribly homesick on Pesach. The tunes and some minhaggim are not mine, and I really miss my grandparents (now deceased) and my cousins (live far away).
This year, I used my grandmother's seder plate, and my guest benched lecht on little candlesticks my grandfather gave me. That felt like they were *invited* to my seder.
I generally excuse myself after benching. If I'm home, I go to the kitchen to wash up, and if we're away, I go to sleep. If I stay, I want to cry, and that's not good for anyone.

Isramom8

Sun, Apr 20 2014, 4:20 am

When I got married a week after Purim 25 years ago, I quickly realized that my father's seder style would clash with my DH. And that seder was every bit as cringeworthy as my nightmares.

After my parents made aliyah, although they lived close by, they avoided our seder and made their own.

Now my mother has passed away, and my father comes to our seders again.

The two men quietly mock each others' styles, and my job is to quietly laugh it off. Because things change, because thank G-d we're a family and because that's what happens to many women who are blessed to be married. Because that's life.

Humor and underlying appreciation can get us through a lot of trying situations.

Ruchel

Sun, Apr 20 2014, 7:04 am

It’s only natural to miss your minhagim. Bear in mind it’s a tremendous mitzvah to take your dh’s and be “like you were raised in his home” (the Meiri). Try to invest in them and over time you’ll get attached. The beauty of songs is that you can do them twice: one his one your. We do this. Kids will grow up with both Smile

Now, yes the items on the plate are not the same, nor is the food exactly the same. No chrain by Yekke dh LOL. I wonder if you could get a psak to have the missing items on the plate, etc.

Now not wanting to sing or not child friendly, is something you will need to make him understand how you think it's needed...

imaima

Sun, Apr 20 2014, 7:06 am

Ruchel wrote:

The problem is that OP's dh has no mesorah, and she does.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Apr 20 2014, 2:18 pm

I support Ruchel's idea. However

there is no stream, sect, or minhag anywhere that requires

cold water.

Down with cold water.

No cold water.

Be yourself, but don't put others down. It's cold.

It's WINE, gentlemen, not cold water.

OP, your husband doesn't like the notion that you are frankly better at this stuff than he is. No man likes to be second best clever in his own house.

He could still be nicer about it.

Oh yes he does have a mesorah. And he clings to it as tightly as anybody else.

Shadchans: look into this.

"School? Income? SEDER CUSTOMS???"

A Rav might be consulted. Ruchel, isn't there something in the Shulchan Arech that a wife can keep some of her customs? As a mere BT, I defer to those who know.