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Earlier Chabad Rebbeim and other gedolim
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 12 2007, 7:52 pm
betshy wrote:
and upto the last 2-3 decades there was no anti-chabad feelings
GR, you and betshy are both right with some modification. Originally, the Chassidim were slandered by their opponents, during the time of the Alter Rebbe - the Baal HaTanya and Shulchan Aruch, and his son Rabbi DovBer, the Mittler Rebbe.

But by the time of the Tzemach Tzedek, peace reigned between the communities of the the Chassidim and the Misnagdim. The Tzemach Tzedek and Rabbi Yitzchok of Volozhin worked jointly against the threat of the Haskalah, and respected each other. It was apparent too, after a few generations of Chassidus had flourished, to the "Misnagdim" that their suspicions of it being a deviation from Yiddishkeit had been unfounded, as the Chassidim were if anything more pious and yirei shomayim, and extra scrupulous in the observance of mitzvos .

For several ensuing generations, there was peace between the camps, but unfortunately, the original hatred was artificially fanned and revived in the last two generations, in expressing vehement opposition to the Frierdiker Rebbe and his successor, the present Rebbe Shlita.

However, whereas the original suspicions were understandably from the newness of the Chassidic movement and fear of an unknown outcome, this was hardly the case after seven generations in which Chassidus has been proven to be authentic to Judaism, and unfortunately the motives of the flames of machlokes now are not pure, but tainted with Sinas chinam and the like.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 13 2007, 1:31 am
The only opposition I know of to the Frierdiker Rebbe was here in RY as both he and R' Kook were criticized for meeting. R' Gluckowsky's father a"h told a shiur once that his family were originally from another Chassidus and he left to participate in the new idea of actively trying to change the spiritual condition by direct approach, (what we call today mivtzoim). That was a novel idea in those days.

In EY you see these things more black and white. There are some Litvishe groups who just see chassidim as other frum Jews who agree to disagree. Weddings between them and Chassidim is most likely to be w/the girl being Chassidish. There is a distance. Their are other groups where continuing the machloches is the glue that holds it all together. In 1988 these groups became very powerful and have negatively affected the Litvish - Chassidish relations here.

Tz - If you read the Tzemach Tzedek and the Haskala movement you will see that though both camps worked together against a common enemy when it came to being allowed to print books of Kabbala and Chassidus the Tzemach Tzedek found himself almost alone and had that been the only issue it is not clear that anything would have been done to prevent govt bans on printing sifrei kodesh.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 13 2007, 12:37 pm
The Rebbe Rashab (d. 1920) worked closely with R' Chaim Ozer Grodzensky, for example, as well as other non-Chasidic gedolim.

As for opposition to the Fr. Rebbe - R' Aharon Kotler was greatly opposed to him. The Chazon Ish too. This is why, in Chabad, these two gedolim to the litvishe world are not exactly revered.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Apr 14 2007, 4:02 pm
Interesting in a thread about revisionism that a whole lot of betshy's last post that I remember being there about Chabad, has disappeared! It doesn't say that she edited it .... Hmm, maybe there are some Chabad revisionists out there too!

Oh, and Motek, why did the Chazon Ish and Rav Aharon Kotler oppose the Fr. Rebbe, since I know nothing about him? But if two gedolei Yisroel opposed him it would be very important info to know why.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Apr 14 2007, 9:34 pm
I would like to know what betshy wrote before, if it was in fact edited. Question
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chanab




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Apr 14 2007, 9:53 pm
Quote:
But if two gedolei Yisroel opposed him it would be very important info to know why.

This is like asking why two tanaim /amoraim in the gemara are having a machlokes or why two mefarshim disgaree. The Fridieker Rebbe was a Tzadik, Shalhevet, NOT an ordinary layman. (I´m afraid I can´t use the expression Gadol for the Friediker Rebbe because to my understanding the F. Rebbe was actually a Nasi--the Manhig Hador of the time. You may disagree of course, but that is your perogative.)
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 15 2007, 3:27 am
chanab wrote:
Quote:
But if two gedolei Yisroel opposed him it would be very important info to know why.

This is like asking why two tanaim /amoraim in the gemara are having a machlokes or why two mefarshim disgaree. The Fridieker Rebbe was a Tzadik, Shalhevet, NOT an ordinary layman. (I´m afraid I can´t use the expression Gadol for the Friediker Rebbe because to my understanding the F. Rebbe was actually a Nasi--the Manhig Hador of the time. You may disagree of course, but that is your perogative.)


I know nothing about the issue, so I can't comment.
However, Motek's comment did not imply that this was a machlokes on a specific issue/issues (which is the nature of a machlokes between two tanaim/amoraim). When there is a machlokes on a halacha then the people involved have great respect for each other and just disagree on the halacha. Eg even though Hilel and Shammai disagreed on halachas involving marriage, their pupils still intermarried.
Motek wrote that these two gedolei Yisroel opposed him and not that they opposed his halacha on a certain point. She then wrote:
Quote:
This is why, in Chabad, these two gedolim to the litvishe world are not exactly revered.

Sounds like tit-for-tat to me. Like no reason for not revering Gedolei Olam, tzaddikim and talmidei chachamim who were world leaders of Jewry and two of the main forces in reviving Torah life after the Churban Europe. Just they were against us, so we won't revere them.

Again, I add that I know nothing about this apart from what Motek has written so I am just assuming she has the correct information.
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bashinda




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 15 2007, 5:26 am
It's hard to mention something while not wanting to talk about it but I've heard a story involving Rav Kotler which goes around in our parts and this might contribute to people having a not very high opinion of him around here.

Also I heard relations between Lubavitch and Yeshivish got worse when the Rebbe Rashab (the Friederker Rebbe's father and the 5th Rebbe) left Agudas Yisroel even though he convinced someone else (anyone remember who?) to stay. I was told people (probably not the Gedolim) bore grudges against Lubavitch for leaving and forming Agudas Chassidei Chabad and that these grudges in some form still exist today. Who knows if this is true.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 15 2007, 9:11 am
Quote:
I wrote that I think the major opposition to Chabad in the last two or so decades is due to the fact that they accepted the Rebbe zt"l as Moshiach.

definitely true. I was going to write that in my post too but got sidetracked.

Quote:
Sounds like tit-for-tat to me. Like no reason for not revering Gedolei Olam, tzaddikim and talmidei chachamim who were world leaders of Jewry and two of the main forces in reviving Torah life after the Churban Europe. Just they were against us, so we won't revere them.

That is reason enough. If someone has an opinion that disagrees with what you know to be true, you obviously disregard what he says.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 15 2007, 10:04 am
GR wrote:

Quote:
Sounds like tit-for-tat to me. Like no reason for not revering Gedolei Olam, tzaddikim and talmidei chachamim who were world leaders of Jewry and two of the main forces in reviving Torah life after the Churban Europe. Just they were against us, so we won't revere them.

That is reason enough. If someone has an opinion that disagrees with what you know to be true, you obviously disregard what he says.


Disregarding what a different rav says (I.e not following his psak) has nothing at all to do with not revering him.
Torah Judaism says to honour all talmidei chachamim, regardless of whether they are 'our' rav.
To give examples: Rav Ovadia Yosef (who is a great Sephardi gadol) holds that it is assur to wear a sheitel. There are gedolei hador who say that a woman shouldn't drive a car.
Now I wear a sheitel and I drive a car (our rav's psak), but of course I revere all gedolei Yisroel, who are held by the Torah world to be Gedolim.

OTOH, I would be against a reform "rabbi", and not just his "psak" since his whole basis is against halacha and is built on sheker.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 15 2007, 10:49 am
shalhevet wrote:
Oh, and Motek, why did the Chazon Ish and Rav Aharon Kotler oppose the Fr. Rebbe, since I know nothing about him? But if two gedolei Yisroel opposed him it would be very important info to know why.
shalhevet that's a question we all have, and since there is no answer I'm afraid there is no reason, other than that the Fr. Rebbe, a giant of Torah, and great Tzadik respected by ALL of Jewry who represented true and fearless devotion to Yiddishkeit under Mesiras Nefesh, being the only Torah leader who did not buckle under the Communist assault, was to their consternation a Chassidic Rebbe.

GR wrote:
betshy wrote:

I wrote that I think the major opposition to Chabad in the last two or so decades is due to the fact that they accepted the Rebbe zt"l as Moshiach.

definitely true. I was going to write that in my post too but got sidetracked.
GR, I've been around a bit longer, and before there was any suggestion of this, there was fierce opposition. With all the terrible news coming out of Europe during WWII, the Frierdiker Rebbe issued a call to bring Moshiach by doing teshuvah, on the American front (Jews were assimilating, and no longer observing the fundamentals of Yiddishkeit) with the slogan:"l'alter l'teshuva, l'alter l'geulah", as it says in RamBam: Yisroel oisin teshuvah u'meyad hein nigalin. "Israel will do Teshuvah and immediately they will be redeemed."

Unbelievaby, there were those who tore down the posters and stickers as soon as they went up!

Another campaign in which the Frierdiker Rebbe suffered inexplicable opposition was in that he insisted on Yeshivas and Day schools beginning the day with service of Hashem and limudei kodesh, while relegating the compulsory (by government) secular studies for the afternoon, when children are more tired and distracted. He quoted the verse "Reishis arisoseichem titnu l'Hashem terumah" "Thou shalt give the first of your dough to G-d as a gift" which speaks of the mitzvah of hafroshas challah, but also translates "The beginnings of your arisings, you shall give to Hashem..." That the day should begin with Avodas Hashem, davening and learning Torah, our best, and freshest kochos should be set aside for Him.
He met with opposition from one of the aforementioned Gedolim.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 15 2007, 12:09 pm
Quote:
GR, I've been around a bit longer, and before there was any suggestion of this, there was fierce opposition.

LOL Tzena Smile
I wasn't writing from what I remember happening:P but from what I've been told by "Chashuve" not-Lubavitch people.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 15 2007, 6:34 pm
shalhevet wrote:
Interesting in a thread about revisionism that a whole lot of betshy's last post that I remember being there about Chabad, has disappeared! It doesn't say that she edited it .... Hmm, maybe there are some Chabad revisionists out there too!


Betshy was contacted privately about the part that was edited. Her misinformation was deleted, not revised. Your obnoxious remark is not appreciated.
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bashinda




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 15 2007, 9:03 pm
Tsena: I don't doubt anything you write but ask respectfully for sources because I'd like to see where I can read more about what the Friederker Rebbe was doing once he was here in America (besides what I can read in the hayom yom)

I knew the Rebbe brings down the same posek about learning limudei kodesh first in a sicha -probably parshas Terumah right?- but had no clue it was the Friederker Rebbe who first brought this down and that it was opposed. It kind of surprises me. Why wouldn't they want other yeshivas to teach limudei kodesh first? And isn't that what they do now? I like to hear about the Friederker Rebbe but boy is this frustrating.

Oh and Tsena can you please teach some maimorim/sichos to me? Smile Your knowledge of chassidus is so ka"h inspiring.
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 15 2007, 9:10 pm
TzenaRena wrote:


Another campaign in which the Frierdiker Rebbe suffered inexplicable opposition was in that he insisted on Yeshivas and Day schools beginning the day with service of Hashem and limudei kodesh, while relegating the compulsory (by government) secular studies for the afternoon, when children are more tired and distracted. He quoted the verse "Reishis arisoseichem titnu l'Hashem terumah" "Thou shalt give the first of your dough to G-d as a gift" which speaks of the mitzvah of hafroshas challah, but also translates "The beginnings of your arisings, you shall give to Hashem..." That the day should begin with Avodas Hashem, davening and learning Torah, our best, and freshest kochos should be set aside for Him.
He met with opposition from one of the aforementioned Gedolim.


Are you sure about this? B/c most yeshivish schools have the same type of scheduling and it is considered a "modern" thing to have limudei chol in the morning. I lived in a community where a break-off school was started for exactly this reason! The "frummer" parents were in an uproar about the fact that not everyone got limudei kodesh in the AM b/c of scheduling issues. And these parents were most definately NOT chabad, but rebbes in a local yeshiva which was a satalite of BMG in Lakewood.
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 15 2007, 9:13 pm
I'm also wondering why (and this is a serious question) if the issue is that "he was a chassidic rebbe" that other "streams" of chassidus don't experience the same opposition? The Gerrer rebbe is nothing but respected in the yeshiva world, as is the Belzer rebbe - I could go on, but you get the point.
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bashinda




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 15 2007, 9:26 pm
I wonder that myself. I think if Mottel Lifshitz had been Bobov or Belz or from another chassidus they wouldn't have edited out the Rebbe bits in his book.

I think Tzena might be right about Limudei Kodesh because this was the '40s and the '40s is not the 2000s or even the 1980s. Back then many people couldn't get jobs if they wore a kippah and certainly most people weren't wearing beards or keeping their tzitzis out and all the other things we take for granted. It certainly seems plausible that the format of the yeshivas were different then. People might have been against changing this for perhaps reasonable objections. Perhaps they worried they would drive away some of their pupils and put them in public schools. I remember reading that many students didn't necessarily come from very frum homes and B"H because of their chinuch at those yeshivas they became frum.

If this is true (and I admit this is pure conjecture based on my limited knowledge of the yeshiva system of the 1940s) the Rebbe was right but these yeshivas weren't ready for it then.
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 15 2007, 9:31 pm
bashinda wrote:


I think Tzena might be right about Limudei Kodesh because this was the '40s and the '40s is not the 2000s or even the 1980s. Back then many people couldn't get jobs if they wore a kippah and certainly most people weren't wearing beards or keeping their tzitzis out and all the other things we take for granted. It certainly seems plausible that the format of the yeshivas were different then. People might have been against changing this for perhaps reasonable objections. Perhaps they worried they would drive away some of their pupils and put them in public schools. I remember reading that many students didn't necessarily come from very frum homes and B"H because of their chinuch at those yeshivas they became frum.

If this is true (and I admit this is pure conjecture based on my limited knowledge of the yeshiva system of the 1940s) the Rebbe was right but these yeshivas weren't ready for it then.


I'm still dubious b/c I seem to remember that the "mothership" yeshivos of yesteryear (Torah Veda'as, RJJ) had L.K. in the AM. Maybe the "out of town" day schools (the few that existed) objected?
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 15 2007, 11:31 pm
Chavamom, of course not every "Yeshivish" leader opposed the Fr. Rebbe, and indeed, many had the greatest respect. AFAIK, for example Torah Vodaath was friendly disposed.

I'm just bringing out that the blind opposition, has its roots in machlokes and really is without rhyme or reason.

It's a fact that the Rebbeim worked hand in hand to strengthen Yiddishkeit with many true Gedolim of the Litvishe world. among them the Chofetz Chaim, R. Chaim Brisker, and in our time R. Moshe Feinstein. and there was mutual respec for generations.

Chaval that there are some who work to incite strife "yesh meayin".
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betshy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 16 2007, 2:22 am
Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt"L who I consider a personal "moreh derech" always mentioned Lubavitch and the Rebbe zt"l with great respect and admiration.
It seems that everyone is talking about 40 years ago or even more. The concern is more about what is happening nowadays.
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