Moshiach | Imamother

shalhevet

Mon, Apr 16 2007, 8:47 am

GR wrote:

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I'm very sorry but calling someone's post misinformation is a little extreme, don't you think? ...

Because officially it's against Imamother rules to discuss the topic.

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Why is it misinformation to say that someone who is no longer living cannot be the Mashiach?

After the countless times this statement has been refuted on this website, it seems you should be able to answer this question.

Incredible isn't it? Motek's nasty post to me gets deleted. My detailed response gets deleted. And all that's left is GR's answers to two of my sentences out of context.

Motek, when you were rude to me I didn't notice that you did it via pm.

I'll say it again. You can't call it misinformation because you don't like someone else's views. You can say "This was deleted because we don't want to see these views on imamother." That's fair enough. It's a private site. But don't lie please. And deleting someone's views is revising the thread.

gryp

Mon, Apr 16 2007, 9:27 am

Quote:

I'll say it again. You can't call it misinformation because you don't like someone else's views. You can say "This was deleted because we don't want to see these views on Imamother." That's fair enough. It's a private site.

But, Shalhevet, that's exactly what you did. Putting aside the issue of the deletions for a second, you made the statement that the fact that Moshiach could be someone who has passed away is false, when you've heard countless times that there are many who hold that it is entirely possible. That is calling someone else's views misinformation.

betshy

Mon, Apr 16 2007, 11:52 am

I'm curious, where does it say that it's possible for Moshiach to be someone who already passed away?
Is it mentioned in the Rambam so often quoted verbatim by Lubavitchers?

Crayon210

Mon, Apr 16 2007, 12:05 pm

Sanhedrin 98

betshy

Mon, Apr 16 2007, 12:19 pm

Crayon, you sound learned, can you elaborate, please?

TzenaRena

Mon, Apr 16 2007, 12:47 pm

Also, for more on the subject you can look up in the Abarbanel's sefer "Yeshuos Meshichoi". This was the Abarbanel's view as well.

Crayon210

Mon, Apr 16 2007, 3:37 pm

betshy wrote:

Crayon, you sound learned, can you elaborate, please?

Rav said: if he is of the living, it would be our holy Master if of the dead, it would have been Daniel the most desirable man.

shalhevet

Wed, Apr 18 2007, 1:18 am

Crayon210 wrote:

betshy wrote:

Crayon, you sound learned, can you elaborate, please?

Rav said: if he is of the living, it would be our holy Master if of the dead, it would have been Daniel the most desirable man.

Could you bring the source and the context please? I understand this to mean that Daniel was fitting to have been the mashiach, had other circumstances been appropriate in his time. (This was also said about other people - I remember Hizkiyahu Hamelech, but there were certainly others.) But it means he was fitting so that if the time for mashiach to come was while he was living, he would have been the one. But it didn't, so he wasn't.

Don't you think that if Hashem would send us a mashiach who was no longer alive He would send us David Hamelech, a"h??
I can't remember where, but it says somewhere that there is someone in each generation who has the potential to be mashiach.

Crayon210

Wed, Apr 18 2007, 6:36 am

I gave you the source already.

Of course Hashem will send Dovid as Moshiach. The Dovid of this generation is Moshiach.

betshy

Wed, Apr 18 2007, 9:21 am

Crayon210 wrote:

I gave you the source already.

Of course Hashem will send Dovid as Moshiach. The Dovid of this generation is Moshiach.

Crayon, if it's the Dovid Hamelech of the generation, why would it have been Daniel after he already passed away?

And also, don't you learn hilchas Moshiach from the Rambam? Where does he mention this idea?

Crayon210

Wed, Apr 18 2007, 9:34 am

I don't know. But that's what the Gemara says. That Moshiach can come from the dead.

What does Hilchos Moshiach of the Rambam have to do with your question of where is there a source for this? You asked for a source, you don't like the source, and now you're asking why your source doesn't say this. It looks like your mind is already made up on the matter.

gryp

Wed, Apr 18 2007, 10:44 am

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It looks like your mind is already made up on the matter.

Like all of us. Wink

gryp

Wed, Apr 18 2007, 10:55 am

I've posted this a few times before. I've compiled it from a few diff places.

Quote:

The Talmud, Sanhedrin 98b, says about Moshiach, "Rav said: ‘If he is from the living, he is (like) Rabbeinu HaKadosh; if he is from the deceased, he is (like) Daniel.’" According to Rashi’s first explanation, the word "like" is lav davka, and the Gemara means to say that if Mashiach will come from those who have passed on he will indeed, be Daniel. But according to Rashis' second explanation, the word "like" is davka, and the Mashiach who comes from the dead, will be like Daniel

The Talmud Yerushalmi, Brachot 17a, contains an almost identical teaching: "If he is from the living, his name is Dovid; if he is from the deceased his name is Dovid." Pnei Moshe, a commentary on the Gemara’s outer margins, explains it thus: "If he is from the living, his name is Dovid; if he is from the deceased, he is Dovid himself."

The same teaching appears again in the Midrash Rabba on Eicha, 1:51.

Abarbanel, in Yeshuos Meshicho, Chelek sheini, Ha’iyun ha’sheini, Perek Alef, says: "Let it not be difficult for you [to accept] that Mashiach can come from those who have died, for our Sages already considered this possibility in Perek Chelek… ‘If he is from the living, he is (like) Rabbeinu HaKadosh; if he is from the deceased, he is (like) Daniel.’"

Sedei Chemed, P’as HaSadeh, Maareches HaAlef, klal 77: "There is yet another manner [in which Mashiach may arrive]: If the Jewish people possess great merit, he will come with the "clouds of Heaven," (I.e., in a miraculous manner). Regarding such a scenario, the Sages said in Sanhedrin that if he is from the deceased, he is Daniel."

"R' Yaakov Yisroel Cherkaser zt"l once recounted that his grandfather R' Nachum of Chernobyl said that even though it says in Koheles that just as the son rises and sets, generations come and go, the Baal Shem Tov is an exception: There was none like him in previous generations, and there will be none like him until the coming of Moshiach, and when Moshiach comes “vet er zein” (he will be), and he repeated this 3 times “vet er zein”, and R’ Yaakov Yisroel said that he understood from his grandfather that the Baal Shem Tov will be Moshiach." (Kuntres Me’iras Einayim, Besh”t al Hatorah p. 16)

“Based on what it says in Kuntres Me’iras Einayim passage 20 that the Baal Shem Tov was from the offspring of David Hamelech a”h, and in passage 23 it says that he will be Moshiach, we can explain why the Baal Shem Tov is generally referred to as “HaBesht” which is the Gematriah of “David ben Yishai” (=386)”. (Ibid page 283)

The Midrash (Bamidbar Rabba 11:3) says that the future Redeemer will be revealed, then concealed, then revealed again. This is quoted by Rabbeinu Bachayei and by the Chasam Sofer on the Torah (both at end of Parshas Shmos). The latter writes: "This is a great test that the Redeemer is concealed [Moshe] . . . and so it will be at the time of our righteous Moshiach [that] he will be concealed after [his] revelation, as mentioned in the Midrash."

From the Zohar (Shmos 8b)--as explained in Zohar Harakiya and Shaar Hagilgulim (ch. 13, both by the ARI-Zal, Rabbi Yitzchak Luria, one of the greatest Kabbalists)--it is clear that the man designated to be Moshiach is born naturally in this world, then the soul of Moshiach in the heavenly "Garden of Eden" is bestowed upon him so that he realizes that he is Moshiach, then he becomes concealed, ascending to heaven, and only afterwards is he revealed to the full extent, the whole Jewish people recognizing him as Moshiach.

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, Apr 22 2007, 4:51 pm

thanks GR for posting the above.
this is a long thread that I'd really like to read, I think I better print it out so I can read it some other time not just next to the computer LOL