Message from Leah Vincent to the frum community

amother

Tue, May 20 2014, 12:07 pm

As seen on Rabbi Eliyahu Fink facebook page.

Quote:

Leah's Introduction:

"In addition to our disagreements about fundamental and urgent issues, many frum people have a misunderstanding about the profile and reality of those who leave frum life. I’ve written this small barebones piece aimed at a frum audience, to address some of the most common misperceptions about our reality as a whole. Working within the parameters of what could be palatable to frum individuals, it consists of a series of what may seem like obvious statements, a first laying of the groundwork for a larger and more complex and difficult conversation."

A Basic Snapshot of Those Leaving The Frum Community

Some begin to question their place in the frum community for intellectual reasons, some for theological reasons, some for emotional reasons, some due to dissatisfaction with frum society in general or as a fit for themselves in particular.

Not all who question choose to leave. Some find answers that compel them to stay. Many wish to leave but find the cost of leaving is too high, so they remain in a world they do not wish to belong to- publicly or externally frum, privately or internally no longer frum. Those who do leave, often do so after a journey, where their original concerns lead them to additional areas of concerns, so the ultimate reason for leaving may be a combination of factors.

All kinds of individuals leave the frum community: men, women, children, adolescents, adults, elderly people. Individuals from families whose difficulties are publicly known and individuals from families whose difficulties are not publicly known. Individuals who have had encounters with the non-frum world, and individuals who have had almost no encounters with the non-frum world. Individuals who experienced great trauma prior to making the choice to leave and individuals who did not experience great trauma prior to making the choice to leave.

Some who leave the frum community try drugs, many do not. Many who leave adopt s-xual and social mores that are more in line with their new society than those of the frum community.

Much of the trauma of leaving the frum community stems from the consequences set by the frum community - the loss of parents, children, siblings, friends, one's home or job. In addition, some trauma is a consequence of being ill-prepared for the secular world. Insufficient formal and social education can become a risk factor in unsafe drug use, unsafe s-xual activity, vulnerability to assault or abuse, lack of employment or other difficult experiences.

Because of these two categories of challenges, many who leave the frum community experience pain and trauma.

Despite these challenges, many formerly frum Jews have created lives with remarkable personal and/or professional success. It seems that the more emotional and practical support an individual is given in their journey out of the frum community, the more likely that their life will be healthy and vibrant.

Perhaps there are some within the frum community who withhold support from their family members or friends who are leaving their community, in anticipation that without support, the individual exiting the frum community will encounter a higher risk of failure and trauma on their journey, which might motivate them to return to the frum community and/or serve as a discouragement for those contemplating leaving.

Some individuals who leave the frum community experience mental illness prior to starting their journey out of the community, but many do not. Some individuals who leave the frum community experience emotional distress because of the consequences of the reaction to their leaving or as a consequence of being ill-prepared for the new society they join, but with time, many develop the emotional strength to alleviate that distress. However the choice to leave the frum community is not indicative of any illness or dysfunction on the part of the individual or their family. Given the diversity of who leaves the frum community and the diversity of their motivations, not much can be inferred about them or their families simply because of this choice.

Some who leave the frum community choose to remain identified with other forms of Judaism, some do not. Some choose to identify as formerly ultra-Orthodox Jews, some do not. Some choose to identify as members of the community of formerly ultra-Orthodox Jews, some do not.

Some who leave the frum community remain actively involved in conversation, projects and encounters with the frum community. Being frum involves a culture and a religion and a community, and one may reject some pieces of these components, without rejecting all.

There are some formerly frum individuals who are angry at how the frum world has harmed them, and they lash out at it as a consequence. Distinct from a judgment on their approach or goals, one can still have compassion for their suffering. Some who react in this way later adopt a less confrontational mode of communication as they proceed on their journey.

Many formerly frum Jews who have witnessed issues of concern in their communities of origin, work to raise awareness and craft solutions for problems within the frum world. Some engage in this work because they are worried about children, parents, siblings or friends who remain in that community. Some engage in this work because they hold a commitment to addressing moral wrongs they have intimate experience with or knowledge of. Many who engage with these issues seek to involve the wider Jewish or secular world as allies in this work, because they feel the frum community is not open to working with them on these problems, or because they judge the pace of change or solutions offered by the frum community as inadequate.

The profile of those who leave the frum community is not uniform, and the journeys of those who choose to leave take many different forms. Regardless of our perspective or goals, there is little to be gained by caricaturing those who leave. Regardless of our perspective or goals, in the long term, we are most likely to be successful if we reject conflict in favor of love and if we reject threats in favor of constructive conversation.

chani8

Tue, May 20 2014, 1:17 pm

Ok, so what's to discuss? People leave for all kinds of reasons. Some for a lot of reasons. Don't try to put those who leave, in a box.

tigerwife

Tue, May 20 2014, 2:48 pm

Regarding 'trauma' from leaving- do you think this affects those who still maintain a connection with their families?

Overall, this is a pretty broad synopsis. I'm not sure what her general message is- that not everyone who leaves is alike?

chani8

Tue, May 20 2014, 3:17 pm

I thought maybe this was leading to a plug for Footsteps or whatever that organization is called that helps people who go OTD. Is she connected to that organization?

elisheva25

Tue, May 20 2014, 4:25 pm

I am also not sure what the point of article is

elisheva25

Tue, May 20 2014, 4:26 pm

Or discussion.

PinkFridge

Tue, May 20 2014, 5:32 pm

Some who leave the frum community try drugs, many do not. Many who leave adopt s-xual and social mores that are more in line with their new society than those of the frum community.

Interesting that she says that the mores are different. We've had discussions here from people who lambast others who talk about loose s-xual mores in the general community.

But it is important to understand why people leave. Some people experience a descent that is a blatant cry for help, and they deserve help. Others aren't looking back. Surely educators and parents want to know what risk factors are, what they can do to support their children, what resources there are.

I don't know how many people read the Lifelines in last week's Mishpacha about an OTD kid who rediscovered himself in scuba diving. (Sorry for the simplification.) The way his family acted was horrifying. Surely along with sending him somewhere to detox and find himself a place in Judaism there should be a mandate for ongoing therapy/counseling/mentoring and feedback of some sort for the family.

So while I feel like I need to read this one or two more times to find her point, if she has one, I think that it's valid to have discussion on these points.

groisamomma

Tue, May 20 2014, 6:00 pm

chani8 wrote:

I thought maybe this was leading to a plug for Footsteps or whatever that organization is called that helps people who go OTD. Is she connected to that organization?

Yes, she actually gave the Gala Speech at their 10th anniversary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN0sIF5_pUk

debsey

Tue, May 20 2014, 6:30 pm

And her point? No kidding. People leave for all sorts of reasons. When people leave, it would be easier to have family support. This is true of any life altering decision. And I say this as someone who's best friend is no longer frum. It's not an easy decision. That being said.....
In terms of caricaturing, well, she does fit into that genre of "I left Orthodoxy. I then (fill in the blanks .....immediately ate in McDonalds...had s-x with anything and anyone with a pulse....became a topless waitress....tied my left shoe first....) and now I'm REALLY happy - here's my glamor shot - put me on your TV show.
It kinda IS an easily caricatured genre.
This is not to say that people sometimes don't leave due to all sorts of painful reasons and disenfranchisement. They do and my heart bleeds for anyone in pain.
No one is trying to caricature those who leave. It would be helpful, as parents, to figure out what causes people to leave so you can avoid those things with your own children. The point would be prevention, not satire. No one wants to hurt an already hurting teenager.
But in terms of caricatures - write something ORIGINAL - and I won't caricature you. Formerly frum girl sleeps with half the universe - we've read that one already, thanks.

Debs

Frumdoc

Tue, May 20 2014, 6:55 pm

From what I read, her point is simply that those who leave are a heterogeneous group who are often emotionally vulnerable and hurting from the very fact of leaving, whatever the reasons for that decision, and to tar them all with the assumption that "they are all on drugs, promiscuous and out to tear our children away from us, take revenge andembarrass us in every way possible" which is an attitude which can prevail in some places, is wrong.

To understand that they are not the devil incarnate is a good start towards reaching out towards people who have chosen a different path in life. Sadly, although many on here are more tolerant, that is not the case everywhere.

marina

Tue, May 20 2014, 6:58 pm

Quote:

No one is trying to caricature those who leave.

what?

And I don't think she is writing this about her own life. I think she is writing this on behalf of many other people, who are most certainly labeled and dumped in an OTD box regardless of their personal life story.

Enjoy this link about how people stereotype OTD folks http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....p+ten

Last edited by marina on Tue, May 20 2014, 7:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Tue, May 20 2014, 7:02 pm

Everyone knows that mostly people that leave are emotionally unstable so she's not going to admit so she's trying to use different types of explanations

marina

Tue, May 20 2014, 7:10 pm

amother wrote:

Everyone knows that mostly people that leave are emotionally unstable so she's not going to admit so she's trying to use different types of explanations

Everyone knows that some frum people need to paint those who leave as emotionally unstable because otherwise, those frum people could not justify remaining religious themselves.

After all, if someone can leave Judaism and still be a stable and happy person, why should I stay? So, of course, I need to convince myself that everyone who leaves is crazy.

Frumdoc

Tue, May 20 2014, 7:35 pm

amother wrote:

Everyone knows that mostly people that leave are emotionally unstable so she's not going to admit so she's trying to use different types of explanations

The very act of leaving this type of community, bringing on the anger and pain on both sides, is enough to cause emotional distress and mental ill health in all but the rarest of individuals. In fact, if it doesn't cause distress, I would suggest something is seriously wrong with that person. The trauma of leaving everything you have known and loved or hated, never to return, knowing you will never be forgiven and you are hurting those who you did at one point, and still may, love, to an outside world you have always been told is full of evil, jew hating, zexually devian drug addicted sinners is not exactly an easy step to take.

Orchid

Tue, May 20 2014, 9:59 pm

amother wrote:

Everyone knows that mostly people that leave are emotionally unstable so she's not going to admit so she's trying to use different types of explanations

That's like saying - when someone claims to be molested, they're really just mentally unstable (when the truth of the matter is, someone who is molested often becomes mentally unstable).

You are mixing up the cause with the result.

saw50st8

Tue, May 20 2014, 10:07 pm

amother wrote:

Everyone knows that mostly people that leave are emotionally unstable so she's not going to admit so she's trying to use different types of explanations

This ignorance is what she is trying to counterbalance.

Most of the people I know who went OTD did so for intellectual reasons, not to try bacon or have s-x.

amother

Tue, May 20 2014, 10:11 pm

who really cares what she has to say?????????

b from nj

Tue, May 20 2014, 10:51 pm

amother wrote:

who really cares what she has to say?????????

What?!! Just because she is no longer religious we should pretend as though she (& all the many other OTD kids) do not exist & bury our heads in the ground about the fact that we have a huge problem keeping our kids in the fold??? I think not.

amother

Tue, May 20 2014, 11:08 pm

Most of the people I know who went OTD are losers. Know lots of frum ben Torahs who are intellectuals professionals etc

chani8

Wed, May 21 2014, 3:26 am

Frumdoc wrote:

This. Your compassion is appreciated.