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Message from Leah Vincent to the frum community
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StripedFlower




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 12:03 am
sequoia wrote:
So it's BETTER to rape children than to eat treif. Got it, thanks for clarifying.


Uh, no.

It's not BETTER. Get a grip.

imokay wrote:
I can't believe anyone wud really think that way....and I think u know that... But I think there is a dif between proudly living an openly 'secular' lifestyle- and occasionally slipping up w the mitzvot but being embarrassed about it.... One is a purposeful decision and one is a mistake to be worked on


Thanks. Well said.

Frumdoc wrote:
Secularism is defined by what you believe, not what you keep.

It is not the specific mitzvot one does or does not do that define who you are, it is your stated belief system.


100% wrong.

Just one example of mine, being mechallel shabbos. If one is a mechall shabbos in public, then he is has the halachic equivalent of a [gentile] for many things.
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Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 6:41 am
PinkFridge wrote:
I respect your broader personal experience. And having read a first person account of a kid who was on the edge and came back, and how atrociously his family handled things, I have to say I believe it.
All I'm saying is babies and bathwater. Yes, the personal and communal experience can be enough to drive someone to the brink. And that's why I say that the Footsteps people may well be saving lives.

OTOH, wouldn't it have been interesting had Deborah Feldman had the chance to say, go to Bruriah? Or maybe even Leah Vincent. (I say maybe even because her book is even more problematic to me than Feldman's as I know her milieu better and again, let this not devolve into her story/her family's story, etc.) Sure, I understand that there are some people who can't intellectually reconcile things and go OTD absent disillusionment, abuse, etc. But there are those whose path to OTD is heavily informed by the disillusionment, abuse, etc. and who might have found their place within the tent, given the chance.


Yes, I 100% agree with you. It needs to come from within, it will never come from those who left. I thought one of her points was that this never happened, this type of support and understanding, which is what pushed so many to go so off the rails by any normal standards. Maybe I am projecting my views onto another. I don't know that much about this chevra or footsteps etc, or the personal issues between the different individuals.
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BlueRose52




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 8:43 am
amother wrote:
That is preposterous.
They LEFT and they continue to harbor negativity.
Then they need to seek professional help AKA a psychiatrist that dispenses medication is an excellent place to start and not air their ill will in a public forum.

Why do you find it preposterous that someone harbors negativity towards those who have hurt them, even after they have escaped the painful experience? Do you also find it preposterous that a woman who escaped an abusive marriage still feels negativity towards her ex-husband for what he did to her?

And what about when the painful experience is still ongoing, such as someone who has been cut off from their kids, or someone whose family doesn't want to have anything to do with them?

You really think it's so outrageous for someone to feel this way that they need to seek professional help and medicate themselves?
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 9:09 am
Pink Fridge, you're on the right page.
I know a couple of guys who did go through what some people here distastefully called a 'loser' stage. The guys did everything: drugs, girls, multiple arrests (and at shockingly young ages). And NOT because they watched a movie for the first time- no, they came from regular open-minded homes. But these guys are blessed with an extraordinary amount of energy, sense of adventure, and not too much fear. Guess what? They were lucky enough to have a support system, not necessarily from family. And they are awesome now. No, they'll probably never go to college or sit in yeshiva full time. But they are proud Jews, keep mitzvos as best as they can, and are happy to learn with a chavrusa every day. They have jobs and are settled. They channel their energy (for example to music) and do an amazing amount of chesed.

Not everyone fits into the system. School could be tough for some.

Not everyone goes nuts because they were sheltered all their lives and think that one sin may as well equal all (although I can see how that happens as well).

OTD doesn't equal Atheist in all cases. Someone who is angry at G-d still believes there is a G-d to be angry at.

And not every OTD person is a rebel. Some simply never had their questions answered and have never felt the basics.

I still find Leah's statement puzzling. Of course everyone has their own story. And not everyone who goes off joins 'Footsteps'. There are plenty of people who do just fine in the secular world.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 9:16 am
ValleyMom wrote:
Clearly I am not understanding and I am hoping you can clarify.

It is my naive understanding that when people LEAVE they do not look back.
They move forward creating a new and improved life for themselves.

People left behind move on as well.

Yes, they feel a sense of loss for those that left but they continue to move forward and live the best life they can

That is my understanding.

Is there something I'm missing?!


It's not so simple at all.
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November




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 9:18 am
That's just one scenerio. Often there is much pain to be worked out.
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BlueRose52




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 10:17 am
tigerwife wrote:
I still find Leah's statement puzzling. Of course everyone has their own story. And not everyone who goes off joins 'Footsteps'. There are plenty of people who do just fine in the secular world.

To you, it's "of course", and that's great. But I think to many people in the frum world, it isn't so self-evident at all, and that's what she's trying to address. After all, isn't it true that certain segments of the frum world talk about people who leave frumkeit in a very formulaic way (taivos, they're messed up, emotionally unstable, losers, etc.)? In fact, in this very thread, people were saying that, which is what I originally found so ironic. "Why should we listen to her that people leave for all sorts of reasons and all sorts of people leave? We all know they're all just messed up!"
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 10:34 am
amother wrote:
That is preposterous.
They LEFT and they continue to harbor negativity.
Then they need to seek professional help AKA a psychiatrist that dispenses medication is an excellent place to start and not air their ill will in a public forum.

I grew up in Crown Heights and spent 13 of my formative years in the Beth Rivkah school system and have chosen to live my life in a different direction. I would NEVER EVER dream of bad mouthing Lubavitch.

I simply chose a different derech--no animosity on my part nor theirs.


Eh, that's nice for you. I spent most of my formative years in CH too and I speak out about the system and how it creates terrible results- in shidduchim, in parnassah, etc.

You can leave and be silent or you can speak out.

Would you like Muslim women who leave fundamentalist Muslim culture to speak out against it or would you like them to be silent?
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 10:35 am
Striped flower- if you're not saying protecting rapists is better than being mechallel shabbos, I fail to understand your statement about how there are sins and then there are SINS.

Can you explain? To me, that statement implies that being mechallel shabbos (SINS) is way worse than the other faults of some frum people.
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 10:41 am
BlueRose52 wrote:
To you, it's "of course", and that's great. But I think to many people in the frum world, it isn't so self-evident at all, and that's what she's trying to address. After all, isn't it true that certain segments of the frum world talk about people who leave frumkeit in a very formulaic way (taivos, they're messed up, emotionally unstable, losers, etc.)? In fact, in this very thread, people were saying that, which is what I originally found so ironic. "Why should we listen to her that people leave for all sorts of reasons and all sorts of people leave? We all know they're all just messed up!"


Do you feel, in a sense, that Leah is addressing herself as well? As in, well, I went OTD and did everything an OTD person does, only to find out that not every OTD person does this? Reading the original post, the format is strange- kind of void of emotion, almost like a paper on science or something.
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Vashti Hamalka




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 10:56 am
BlueRose52 wrote:
Sorry, but this is absurd. Of course you can know someone is lying without having lived their life. While I agree that we usually can't know the veracity of someone's own personal experiences, what we can often verify is when they say something about other people. For instance, if she says her ex-husband is a horrible father who never spends time with his son and you know the man and see what a loving and caring father he is and how much time he spends with his son, then you know she is lying.


Based on your premise, it must be that Leah is lying since several imamothers know her father and/or family really well and have said wonderful things about him/them so how can it be possible for such a wonderful, generous person/family to do something aweful to his own daughter?
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amother


 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 10:59 am
Vashti Hamalka wrote:
Based on your premise, it must be that Leah is lying since several imamothers know her father and/or family really well and have said wonderful things about him/them so how can it be possible for such a wonderful, generous person/family to do something aweful to his own daughter?


My father is also a well respected community member but on some level he was verbally abusive to me. It's entirely possible and please do not be naive enough not to believe it.

I have no comment on the rest of the thread.
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BlueRose52




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 11:00 am
tigerwife wrote:
Do you feel, in a sense, that Leah is addressing herself as well? As in, well, I went OTD and did everything an OTD person does, only to find out that not every OTD person does this? Reading the original post, the format is strange- kind of void of emotion, almost like a paper on science or something.

I didn't sense that she was talking about herself at all. Truth is, Leah's story (at least, her earlier years) would in fact be a great proof that the predictions of the frum world about those who go OTD come true! She was emotionally unstable, she was promiscuous, etc. (She's pointed this out herself, in interviews.)

As for it being devoid of emotion, I can see how it comes across as kind of dry, but I think that's fine. Besides, when people write with passion, then they get discredited for "being too emotional", so you can't win either way.
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Vashti Hamalka




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 11:10 am
amother wrote:
My father is also a well respected community member but on some level he was verbally abusive to me. It's entirely possible and please do not be naive enough not to believe it.


I believe that was the original amothers point. You think you know a person well because you see him dong x,y,z in public but you have no idea what really goes on behind closed doors so its pretentious to claim someone is lying simply because you know someone externally.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 11:44 am
Vashti Hamalka wrote:
Based on your premise, it must be that Leah is lying since several imamothers know her father and/or family really well and have said wonderful things about him/them so how can it be possible for such a wonderful, generous person/family to do something aweful to his own daughter?


Next amother, I feel your pain. Let's keep it on that level, that "I can believe this kind of thing could happen" vs. "I know for a fact that it did/didn't happen."
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 11:48 am
marina wrote:
Eh, that's nice for you. I spent most of my formative years in CH too and I speak out about the system and how it creates terrible results- in shidduchim, in parnassah, etc.

You can leave and be silent or you can speak out.

Would you like Muslim women who leave fundamentalist Muslim culture to speak out against it or would you like them to be silent?


I'm going to leave CH out of this. I just want to say that there are different scenarios. Some possibilities are:
The system is not conducive to the type of growth a person needs
The system is itself flawed
The system is not the problem as much as the people and one's personal environment.

Among other scenarios.
In the cases where the scenario is flawed, if not dangerous, it's quite understandable that someone should want to speak out. And it's also understandable that people would want to share their stories, regardless. But there are some people who will not speak out because they don't equate their background with fundamentalist Muslim culture.
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BlueRose52




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 12:02 pm
Vashti Hamalka wrote:
Based on your premise, it must be that Leah is lying since several imamothers know her father and/or family really well and have said wonderful things about him/them so how can it be possible for such a wonderful, generous person/family to do something aweful to his own daughter?

Of course it's possible, since people outside a family don't have the same experience and perspective of a family's dynamics as those who are inside of it.

Allow me to clarify something: When I said we can know if someone is lying if they're saying things about other people, I meant factual statements that can be verified by others. But just because people have had wonderful experiences with Leah's family doesn't mean they can know the truth about Leah's own experience with her family.

If she had said, "my father disapproved of X in his community," and people in the community can confirm, based on their first-hand knowledge, how untrue this is, then we'd know she is lying. But if she says, "my father didn't approve of ME doing X", then no one but her close family members can really know if this is true, regardless of how he approached this issue with those outside the family.

(By the way, her brother has corroborated her version of events.)
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Vashti Hamalka




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 1:26 pm
BlueRose52 wrote:

(By the way, her brother has corroborated her version of events.)


Lets examine the story Leah wrote of her sisters engagement party, the one where she was told not to touch any of her siblings and to eat off plastic plates/utensils. She wrote that her brother Mordy was not there at the time since he was in yeshiva. Is this the same brother that corraborated her story? Did he confirm this particular incident as well? If he did, then I question everything he says since he was not there so how does he know for sure what happened?
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BlueRose52




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 1:39 pm
Vashti Hamalka wrote:
Lets examine the story Leah wrote of her sisters engagement party, the one where she was told not to hug/touch any of her siblings and to eat off plastic plates/utensils. She wrote that her brother Mordy was not there at the time since he was in yeshiva. Is this the same brother that corraborated her story? Did he confirm this particular incident as well? If he did, then I question everything he says since he was not there so how does he know for sure what happened?

This is so tiresome. Can't we stop invalidating general statements based on specific examples? She has been accused of lying and distorting her history, in general. Yet her brother corroborated that her portrayal is accurate. Does anyone think that means that every single thing she said he confirmed to be true? Of course not! He was responding to the overall criticism she's received as misrepresenting the facts.

This nitpicking is ridiculous. Or maybe it's just a sign of desperation.
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Vashti Hamalka




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 26 2014, 1:59 pm
BlueRose52 wrote:
This is so tiresome. Can't we stop invalidating general statements based on specific examples? She has been accused of lying and distorting her history, in general. Yet her brother corroborated that her portrayal is accurate. Does anyone think that means that every single thing she said he confirmed to be true? Of course not! He was responding to the overall criticism she's received as misrepresenting the facts.

This nitpicking is ridiculous. Or maybe it's just a sign of desperation.


The only desparation I detect is on your end. You desparately want us to believe Leah and to listen to everything she has to say. You go as far as to say that her younger brother corraborated her version of the story even though he wasnt in England or Israel or New York with her and was probably too young to have been involved with any of it that time. He may have been older at the engagement party but he wasnt home then either. So there is no way for him to confirm any of it. How come you are so desparate for us to believe Leah (and/or her brother)?
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