Message from Leah Vincent to the frum community

Frumdoc

Wed, May 21 2014, 2:27 am

amother wrote:

Most of the people I know who went OTD are losers. Know lots of frum ben Torahs who are intellectuals professionals etc

Whereas the people I know are too intellectually honest to accept the compromises in the orthodox systems they lived in, the homophobia, the issues about women and other fundamentals that were inconsistent with their principles. Several sacrificed their happiness for living with honesty and according to their own moral code, ultimately they were unable to tolerate our own hypocrisies.

The drug addicts and no hopers are still there making their aidel innocent and ignorant wives unhappy while they pile off to the pool club to smoke weed and drink overy motzei shabbat with their non jewish "girlfriends". Sad

They have a great life, why would they leave?

(Obviously not everyone I know I like this, but I do know some, they have no intention of leaving the community that provides them with all their needs ).

tigerwife

Wed, May 21 2014, 3:33 am

amother wrote:

Most of the people I know who went OTD are losers. Know lots of frum ben Torahs who are intellectuals professionals etc

That's very harsh. There are people who leave because they had a horrific time in school due to learning disabilities, or come from awful backgrounds, are different in some way and never get accepted, etc.

Labeling them as 'losers' will definitely perpetuate their path away from Judaism. And probably being labeled is what caused many to turn away to begin with.

princessleah

Wed, May 21 2014, 6:01 am

I saw this on facebook and read the whole discussion. As demonstrated here, people DO try to brush all OTD people with one stroke. I think especially because the more 'high profile' fame-seeking types are the ones we see the most. But there's a whole universe of people out there who quietly leave frum life and do NOT write books, go on talk shows, etc. Yet they are still alienated from parents, siblings, friends, and ch''v their own children.

I just wish that it was OK in some communities to have children who do not fit the mold. I really think the biggest problem is parental fear of how having one OTD child will affect the rest of the family-- the embarrassment, what schools the younger kids can get in to, and shidduchim especially. If the communities could just adopt an attitude of -- we believe that our derech is the right one, but unfortunately sometimes people leave, but they are still Jews and family, it would go a loooong way.

I honestly do not believe that ANY parent willingly or easily disassociates from their own offspring. I think the communal pressure forces them into it. It's really chaval.

leah233

Wed, May 21 2014, 6:54 am

Seems to me like a big part of her message is in essence asking frum people to ease the way for those who want to go OTD. Of course my response is NO!!!

But I'll give her a return message.Regardless of who the group is, when you make a career out of bashing it, and have goals antithetical to it you really can't expect them to take you seriously. Especially when those who want to write you off as bending the truth have plenty of evidence you have done so.

PinkFridge

Wed, May 21 2014, 9:19 am

amother wrote:

Most of the people I know who went OTD are losers. Know lots of frum ben Torahs who are intellectuals professionals etc

Most of the people I know who went OTD are in pain. The lucky ones didn't drown their pain in drugs, etc. but moved on with life and got degrees, care for themselves, etc.
I could say more but I have to run. And I just read the rest of this page and am gratified to see others addressing this.

amother

Wed, May 21 2014, 10:08 am

amother wrote:

who really cares what she has to say?????????

I wouldn't listen to anything she has to say because of her choice of life as of now. Many people suffer in life ..in childhood ... those who persevere and became stronger people are the ones we should learn from. Running away and leaving the torah way of life is nothing to be proud of.

Perhaps she went through difficulties or her parents made mistakes but really, who's to say that as a parent she wont make mistakes and cause her own children to one day go against everything she believes in?

Listening to someone who ran away is not something I would do or recommend.

greenfire

Wed, May 21 2014, 2:37 pm

I guess some people like to play god ... pick a number # & get in line ~

praying none of you endure pain or judgement from others because of things that befall you & nor the criticism & hatred of family that leaves you for dead - sometimes for their own sins toward you

it's a miracle more people don't run & never look back

Frumdoc

Wed, May 21 2014, 2:59 pm

The pain of going through any separation, be it divorce, leaving a way of life (going "otd"), getting married or just moving house is profound and intense.

Moving home, for example, is considered one of life's big stressors, which can cause an episode of depression, along with losing a parent, a job or severe illness.

If you can get over the fact that you believe they are doing the wrong thing, and accept that these are jewish neshamas in pain, struggling to find their path and not being able to do so in the world in which they live, why would you not want to help them and ease their pain?

Imagine the emotional trauma of realising that you no longer believe, or maybe never did, in the precepts of your own community, but knew that you either carry on living a lie or are rejected and shunned for the rest of your life? Wouldn't you seek some comfort somewhere, whether numbing your mind via alcohol, drugs or orgasms? Or depression?

Very very few people seek out mind numbing substances because they are happy, they seek to obliterate their sorrows.

So if we had more compassion towards those who struggle, instead of throwing them out and mistreating them from the minute one challenges the norm, we would have fewer damaged jews and more chance of maintaining them within the fold, somewhere.

I know many people who have left orthodoxy, the vast majority of whom did so painfully and still carry the scars, including those who have returned to orthodox judaism in their later years. Many say that if they weren't so rejected, if someone had listened to them and engaged with their issues, they would not have done what they did out of pain and self hatred.

After all, if we are so convinced this is the right way to live, why are we so frightened of dissent?

if we acted with love towards those who struggle, the results would be far more positive.

marina

Wed, May 21 2014, 5:14 pm

amother wrote:

So, to sum up: You cannot possibly learn anything from someone who has rejected your path.

I feel like any company who has ever done a customer service survey or any boss /school who does exit interviews would disagree. But, hey, you probably know better.

BlueRose52

Wed, May 21 2014, 5:22 pm

amother wrote:

So you don't think that going from being thrown out of your family, being virtually homeless, suicidal and living a degenerate lifestyle (based on her own description) to going to college, graduate school at Harvard, starting a family and being a devoted mother and wife qualifies as "persevering and becoming stronger"?

Last edited by BlueRose52 on Wed, May 21 2014, 5:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

marina

Wed, May 21 2014, 5:31 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

So you don't think that going from being thrown out of your family, being virtually homeless, suicidal and living a degenerate lifestyle (based on her own description) to going to college, graduate school at Harvard, starting a family and being a devoted mother and husband qualifies as "persevering and becoming stronger"?

no, silly! you can only become stronger if you wear a tichel and a long skirt. She doesn't, so there you go.

leah233

Thu, May 22 2014, 8:16 am

marina wrote:

Is that because religion is a jail and you are the guard?

I don't get the question or the analogy so the answer once again is NO.

There are many people who would do all sorts of evil things and hold back because of societal consequences.I don't mean this from a religious perspective and I'm not referring to religious behavior.(e.g. I've heard non-Jewish coworkers say the only thing that prevents them from certain crimes is not the fear of getting arrested per se but rather the problems career wise getting arrested will cause them) Anyone coming to me asking to change those factors will also be told NO!

sequoia

Thu, May 22 2014, 8:24 am

This is all very confusing for me. I can understand if she were living a dangerous or antisocial lifestyle (drugs, crime, promiscuity), you might say "I told you so!" But if someone is a normal, civilized, educated, law-abiding woman, wife, and mother, what's there to say? So she chose to be secular. Big deal. You can't and shouldn't expect everyone to be frum. In fact most Jews are secular. Going OTD involves drama and difficulties? Well yeah, like all major changes. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. You made the choice to be observant; she made the choice not to be. What's the brouhaha about?

happybeingamom

Thu, May 22 2014, 10:01 am

The brouhaha in general is that we don't want people to sin.

Now what many formerly orthodox Jews suffer with is their families reaction to their no longer being observant and their concern that others are not influenced by that choice.

Many go about reacting the wrong way. Some of the main reasons I think is the family feels very betrayed and their dreams for their family are broken because some of descendant will not be observant and very likely eventually intermarry.

Lot of pain going around.

sequoia

Thu, May 22 2014, 10:09 am

Well, if you want people to respect your choices (and you do -- you want them to provide kosher food for you when necessary, not schedule events on shabbos, dress tzniusly in your home even if tznius is not on their radar), then you have to respect theirs.

Frankly, I don't see what's so "sinful" about Leah's life. What is she, kidnapping orphans to sell or something?

My atheist friends do not judge me for being religious -- they think the whole thing's a bit silly and unnecessary, but they respect my choice. Why wouldn't I give them the same courtesy back?