ALARMING! Please Only Respond If You Support Vaccinations

amother

Mon, Jun 02 2014, 10:44 am

amother wrote:

I said nothing about a psak. I said he backed her. She was not asking for a psak halacha.

I'm sorry but I don't know what you mean. He backed her with what?

I understood you as: If the rav said she does not need to vaccinate without medical reason, then, that is a psak halacha. She is not required to vaccinate her children. And, further, if it applies to one person without medical necessity, then it applies to others. I find it hard to believe he issued a psak halacha when Rabbi Yaakov Forsheimer says otherwise. I find it hard to believe that R' Kotler would even issue any psak.

Am I misunderstanding you? Did he say something different to your sister? The RY defers halacha to great poskim like R' Forsheimer. R' Forsheimer says halachically we need to vaccinate. You told us in your original post the rav is anti-vaccinating and he is willing to allow people to skip vaccinations. Now, you are saying he just backs people who do not vaccinate despite the general klal in Lakewood where all children are required to have childhood vaccinations as per BMG poskim. Please clarify because I do not understand.

I apologize but understanding the exact situation/wording and language are important because you wrote the rav is anti-vaccinations.

-amother in vaccine development

amother

Mon, Jun 02 2014, 10:56 am

amother wrote:

I am not the original amother who said he is an anti vaxer. My first post was about him backing my sister and it was not a psak halacha.

amother

Mon, Jun 02 2014, 11:08 am

Rishel Kotler, Makiel Kotler's wife is anti vaccines. No he doesn't pasken but if anyone were to call him and ask him to give him a letter he would. No you don't har to have a whole sob story and no he is not signing huge statements but if someone were to call the rosh hayeshiva for help he will help anyone not just special cases.

You don't have to verify a certain story call and ask the Rebetzin what her stance on vaccines is and why.

amother

Mon, Jun 02 2014, 11:16 am

amother wrote:

I am not the original amother who said he is an anti vaxer. My first post was about him backing my sister and it was not a psak halacha.

I then fully apologize. I assumed both statements were said by the same person hence my statements. I hope you accept my apology. I can fully understand in one specific circumstance he acted in a manner that is against what BMG does pasken for a particular case. I had assumed you had said both statements and were therefore saying that the RY of BMG paskens against the poskim at BMG who the rav defers to. Rather you were trying to relay a specific case where the rav felt it was appropriate to make an exception.

-amother in vaccine development

amother

Mon, Jun 02 2014, 11:25 am

amother wrote:

Isn't Rebbetzin Rishel the wife of R' Shneur Kotler? Not R' Malkiel Kotler? I thought she was his mother. Just confused.

california2

Mon, Jun 02 2014, 6:05 pm

I'm a doc. I wrote a post about a kid I took care of with whooping cough (pertussis). Kid was unvaccinated because mom just thought she'd been presented with "both sides" and there were "risks on both sides" and it just seemed "safer" to not vaccinate. Her child came in seizing and not breathing. Luckily, her kid did OK after a week in the ICU and another week on the pediatric ward.
I went back to ask her how she felt after this whole thing - she felt completely, utterly, totally swindled by the anti-vax propaganda. She feels bitter and dreadfully guilty. She feels angry, and she has posted to her "natural parenting" forums about her experience, and has signed up to get her kids vaccinated ASAP.

BUT - she says there is nothing - nothing!! we could have told her differently as caregivers before hand, because she just wouldn't have believed it. This is discouraging and relieving. Discouraging because, ugh! But relieving because, it takes the burden from me to have come up with the exact specific phrase that would have changed her mind (I wasn't the provider she had before the illness, but I have other non-vaccinators cross my path).

She did say I could share her story in any amount of detail, if there's even the slightest chance it would either change someone's mind or help other providers figure out how to change someone's mind. So though I was originally "amother" for that previous post, I'm out there now with my location, and may I add, pertussis rates in my area are 3-4 times what they were last year. It's an epidemic year for pertussis (happens every 4-5 years). So ANY advice from those who ever WERE anti-vax on how to convince those who are currently anti-vax, would be very welcome...

seeker

Mon, Jun 02 2014, 7:34 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Were there? I don't remember anyone saying they wouldn't use antibiotics or decline life saving surgery except perhaps think1st.

The question was why people would trust their doctor on everything else but go against their recommendations to vaccinate. This exact question was discussed in a thread whose title I don't remember but the original post was asking mothers who don't vaccinate whether they trust doctors on other things, and if so how do they reconcile that apparent conflict. There were some interesting points made that would help clarify this question. I don't know if anyone there said they wouldn't use antibiotics, and I don't see why that's relevant; the point was that they explained why they might use antibiotics but not vaccines. I don't necessarily agree with their choices but was just pointing out that that would be the thread to find if you want to know more about this particular question.

seeker

Mon, Jun 02 2014, 7:40 pm

california2 wrote:

I went back to ask her how she felt after this whole thing - she felt completely, utterly, totally swindled by the anti-vax propaganda. She feels bitter and dreadfully guilty. She feels angry, and she has posted to her "natural parenting" forums about her experience, and has signed up to get her kids vaccinated ASAP.

BUT - she says there is nothing - nothing!! we could have told her differently as caregivers before hand, because she just wouldn't have believed it. This is discouraging and relieving. Discouraging because, ugh! But relieving because, it takes the burden from me to have come up with the exact specific phrase that would have changed her mind (I wasn't the provider she had before the illness, but I have other non-vaccinators cross my path).

I understand why she might feel guilty but I'm not sure what you mean by swindled. I haven't heard anti-vaxers say that pertussis doesn't exist and is never dangerous. What they say is that the risk of the vaccine is worse (or worse because you're doing it actively, as opposed to having something happen to you - for the religious perspective. Whatever. This is something I've heard people say) and that the vaccine isn't effective anyway so not worth the risk. While these points are arguable, an anti-vaxer who made their decision consciously and firmly would accept their child's illness as being part of the risk they took. Who ever told them there was no risk? They just decided the risk was not enough to make them do it. Good morning?

MaBelleVie

Mon, Jun 02 2014, 7:42 pm

california2 wrote:

Here's an interesting piece from a woman who was raised unvaxed and chose to vax her kids http://www.voicesforvaccines.o.....ated/

Think1st

Mon, Jun 02 2014, 7:46 pm

california2 wrote:

So you know 1 unfortunate case of severe whooping cough (pertussis), how is that different than saying I know 1 person who smoked & was healthy at age 95

My siblings & me all had whooping cough , mumps, chicken pox, etc. anytime better than skyrocketing Autism infertility or cancer

Mayo clinic just did experiment showing how large dose of measles destroyed cancer cells

http://www.medicalnewstoday.co.....6.php

Follow the money, this link shows how your phoney mother story website is funded

http://vactruth.com/2014/02/19.....sity/

Last edited by Think1st on Mon, Jun 02 2014, 8:00 pm; edited 3 times in total

seeker

Mon, Jun 02 2014, 7:52 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Here's an interesting piece from a woman who was raised unvaxed and chose to vax her kids http://www.voicesforvaccines.o.....ated/

Best point, imho:

Quote:

If you think your child’s immune system is strong enough to fight off vaccine-preventable diseases, then it’s strong enough to fight off the tiny amounts of dead or weakened pathogens present in any of the vaccines. But not everyone around you is that strong, not everyone has a choice, not everyone can fight those illnesses, and not everyone can be vaccinated. If you have a healthy child, then your healthy child can cope with vaccines and can care about those unhealthy children who can’t.

amother

Tue, Jun 03 2014, 4:28 am

Think1st wrote:

another severe case of whooping cough w my infant at 8 weeks (prior to scheduled vaccine). My baby had a seizure in my arms (we were already hospitalized bH) and we were in picu for a few days..... bH bH all is ok.... but even after we got home she suffered coughing episodes for months.....

sky

Tue, Jun 03 2014, 7:25 am

flowerpower wrote:

This post is for pro vaccines only!!!! Do you hear!!??

Thank you. anyone else noticed in the natural parenting section even neutral comments were deleted but here anything is allowed !

I believe there is a rule in the parenting section that if someone asks for non-natural opinions (like I only want to bottle feed) that is all that is allowed to post.
There used to be a 'non-natural' forum and it was dissolved this rule was applied.
I wish the moderators would use the same heavy hand here as they do in the natural parenting section. I always feel as if there is a double standard.

amother

Tue, Jun 03 2014, 8:08 am

chani8 wrote:

I don't understand. If our kids are vaxed, then what are we worried about?

Non-vaccinated kids and kids with diseases pose no threat, since our kids are fully vaccinated.

Me, I worry about those too young to vaccinate. I worry about those whose vaccines failed to induce immunity and don't know or those whose immunity has worn with age (specifically the DTaP). I worry about my parent who cannot be vaccinated and is no longer protected from any vaccine preventable disease. I worry about my immuno-compromised dh. I worry about kids with cancer. I worry that our hospitals will no longer be a place where cancer patients can enter.

Most of all, I worry about those kids whose parents decided not to vaccinate. The suffering they may go through because of their parents decisions. I'm scared their child will be the one we take the next research strain from. I'm scared their child may die due to an improperly informed decision.

-amother in vaccine development