How Can You Do Everything? Should we push ourselves?

amother

Sun, Jun 08 2014, 2:59 am

This isn't really the proper forum for this- I would have prefered to put it under Judaism, but anon is disabled there. If mods can think of a better place to put it with anon enabled, feel free to move it. Its not really emotional health or shalom bayis, its just a question about jewish life...

For a long time, my husband hasn't been in a strong place religiously. He recently has been getting stronger, and he is starting to actually daven more, go to shul more, learn more, go to shiurim more. At my encouragement. But even that is maybe a few times a week, he still has a ways to go.

We have friends in the same place in life, married with a few kids, and the husband is very strict- he wakes up every day at 4 am, learns, then goes to netz, then learns in kollel for a few hours, then works in the afternoon, then goes out to mincha once and then again out to maariv, and has a chavrusa in the evening often as well. He hasn't missed a single minyan in at least 5 years.
The wife, meanwhile, is beyond exhausted, and having health issues from her exhaustion. Watching the kids, running after the kids all day long, (some who have medical issues that take extra work) and waking up with them many, many times at night (and not for lack of trying to sleep train them), she is depressed, exhausted, burnt out... and most of what she is doing is completely on her own because her husband is out much of the time, at minyan, in shiurim, etc... and she feels like she's stopping him from learning more, that if she didn't keep him home sometimes to help, he'd be learning more, and she feels guilty about it. At the same time, they don't have much time to spend as a couple, because they are too exhausted, but they just keep pushing forward day after day. And she is also a very good mother, very on top of her kids, very involved, keeping them entertained, like the type of mom who takes her kids to the park every day and actually plays with them there instead of sitting on the bench, relaxing, while they play.

So looking at her and her life... I am torn on three fronts. As a friend, who cares about her and what she's going through, I want to recommend to her that she asks her husband to not go to vasikin, to maybe miss minyan occasionally, maybe learn a little less, so that he isn't too exhausted to help her, and she doesn't feel like all the burden of parenting is on her, doesn't feel depressed, doesn't have health issues from her extreme exhaustion, etc... But who am I to advise her on religious things, especially since my husband isn't so strong religiously? How can I interfere in their avodas hashem- isn't that something they need to work out on their own? How can I think of telling them to go down on their frumkeit level for the sake of their sanity, health and wellness and happiness as a couple? Isn't that what the world is about- "Adam li'amal yulad", and not to take it easy? Life isn't supposed to be easy, its ok to be struggling and not have smooth sailing?

And at the same time, while I'm encouraging my husband to grow, and am happy that he is, I am seeing that instead of spending time with me helping with the kids, he's going out to minyan, learning, etc... and I am torn on the issue- it isn't so easy, the little that he's doing now- but its still less than the halachic requirement... should I push him to do what is halachically required, even if it takes a toll on our emotional sanity, our happiness, and so that it makes our life hard? If my life is only somewhat hard, if we're not feeling stretched to our capacities, are we doing something wrong, especially if at the moment, my husband isn't doing what is halachically required- davening 3 times a day, let alone with a minyan?

And lastly, I sometimes am a bit too easy going as a parent, not paying my kids as much attention as I should, not being the perfect parent. Because I have my limits as well. I can't be super involved, pushing them on the swings in the park instead of sitting on the bench, without feeling like I need time to recharge... I do put on movies for them when I just need a break, for example, and that is how I feel even when not pushing my husband to go out to daven with a minyan, to learn, etc...

In short, my question really is- is it possible to "do everything", from a parenting perspective, halachic/hashkafic perspective, as well as keep a marriage strong, without falling apart emotionally as well as physically? And if it is possible, how? And if its not possible, which should be the first thing to cut yourself some slack on? What would Hashem say about being meikil on halacha, not do some halachic requirements (bitel aseh, not doing a lo taaseh) for the sake of your health, or to be a better parent, or for the sake of your marriage, or all three?

cookiecutter

Sun, Jun 08 2014, 9:18 am

This is an excellent topic and it's just the kind of thing I like to talk about and I wish there were more topics like this on imamother.
I think that you should thank hashem for your husband. I see two related issues at play here.

1. Favoring "hard" religion over "soft" religion. Judaism is not just ritual. There are halachos and hashkafos of bein adam lachaveiro as well. But it's easy to measure how often someone goes to davening; and harder to measure how accomplished someone is interpersonally so we consider "tzadikim" to be the ones who daven more.

2. In the chareidi community, there is a pervasive perception that if you're managing you are not doing enough. IMO this is terrible. It causes anxiety, dissatisfaction, and a zillion other unhealthy dynamics.

OTOH, people choose the lifestyle that suits them. People need meaning in their lives and are willing to sacrifice for it. Your friend's husband is not perfect but this is the life they chose, presumably together. I think most people would understand if they made sacrifices for wealth, or for a love of opera. We should allow the same consideration for religious satisfaction, with the caveat that they need to have open lines of communication so that they can adjust their lifestyle to meet their needs.

Ultimately, your question doesn't have an answer but is part of the human condition. We go through life and hopefully get better and better at fine tuning our lives so that we put as much as possible into them and get as much as possible out.

ora_43

Sun, Jun 08 2014, 5:17 pm

Reactions in no particular order -

Whether it's possible to "do everything" depends on so many factors (physical strength, children's needs, finances, personality, etc etc). Ultimately each person needs to figure out for themselves what they can handle.

I think the ideal level of effort isn't comfortable, but isn't really painful, either. Kind of like physical exercise - you want to feel the burn, but you don't want it to hurt in a way that means something is wrong.

I don't think you're talking about "being meikel." You're talking about which halacha comes first at a given moment. IE, for a man it's not "should I do a mitzva of going to minyan, or should I help my wife," it's, "should I do the mitzva of going to minyan right now, or the mitzva of helping my wife."

Regarding your friend, since her husband is in kollel full-time it may not be so simple. Often only men who are serious about learning get a good kollel stipend, and a potential future career in teaching or as a rabbi. Maybe he's putting religion before helping his wife, but maybe he just doesn't have the freedom to leave "work" to go home even when his wife is tired.

In any case, I think strategically sharing a different perspective might be a better idea than coming straight out and telling her what you think she should do.

amother

Sun, Jun 08 2014, 7:40 pm

One consequence of 'overdoing' it - whether in terms of time (lack of sleep, exhaustion etc) or money (living on the edge of poverty etc) (or chumros, for that matter, whether eating fewer products, making e/t from scratch etc etc) is that some of the children will decide they are never living anything like their parents.

It takes tremendous chochma to live a 'mesirus-nefesh' type of lifestyle in a way that the children feel that it's a privilege.

Of course, it's the parents' right to decide how they will live, but if you gave them the choice (leave Kollel 2 years earlier so your kids won't feel deprived and all your kids will want a life of Torah vs. the father stays in Kollel indefinitely and half or even one of his kids won't want Kollel) I am not sure what they would choose. Then again, they can't necessarily know the outcome. But they can know if the family feels very strained & the kids don't seem happy.

My husband - with the advice of his rebbeim - took a position in Chinuch after around 12 years in Kollel. He was told it would be healthy for the family, for many reasons, including knowing that the father has a position.

In fact, when we were offered a shidduch with someone whose mother ran a successful business & the father still learned, we turned it down, because we felt it was 'a different culture'.

elisheva25

Sun, Jun 08 2014, 7:48 pm

I think it's important to understand the personalities involved as well as the goals that a particular couple set up.for themselves. I am By no means charedi and neither is.my husband. But I guess certain things are important to us ,so.we.sacrifice
. We have 3 little kids.close in age, because it was our decision to try to have a larger rather a smaller family in the long run. So we didn't.want large gaps. My husband's works very long hours, and on top of that has time he set up for.learning at night. Also he never misses a minyan. Now, I can ask him to stay home, but the thing that I've realized over the years is that it truly is imp for him ....so I don't ask. HOw do we manage to keep our sanity???? Smile

. BH,a thousand times over....we are able to afford babysitting/cleaning help which makes a world of a difference.So our life is hectic, but I don't.think.we are pushing to the maximum here, and that's ok
I think.it's important to feel fulfilled In life, without having to.feel burned out. Yes you are talking halacha here, but sooo much depends on individuals involved.And no I don't think living a frum life is easy.

the world's best mom

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 12:21 am

What is right for you has nothing at all to do with what is right for your friend. If your friend's husband is learning and davening a lot and they are both happy with that, let them continue and be happy. They should do what works for them. If that is too much for you, that's fine. You don't have to be your friend. You do what works for you.

Personally, I think it is a great thing if a man begins going to Minyan 3 times a day. It is not easy for men, and it is not easy for us women who are left at home dealing with the kids by ourselves, but it is great if you and your husband can achieve that. Beyond that, it's up to you to decide together what works for you as a family.

And don't feel guilty for not always playing with your kids. There is definitely value to the time you spend focused on them, but there is also value to the time they spend playing on their own. That's how they develop proper play skills.

amother

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 1:18 am

I am going to post my story for the benefit of others

I married a big masmid. I worked and paid the bills and he learned

then along came children b'h - I still worked but sort of resented that he couldn't help me out at all.

then came more difficulties and dh stopped learning - decided he needed a job but couldn't find one. so he was home a lot and I resented even more that I was doing everything and he wasn't working or learning.

Boruch Hashem after many many tefilos dh went back to learning and is learning over 12 hours a day - I am so happy I am willing to do anything. I am taking the complete responsibility of my house and children as I see the different in how he is when he is back to his learning. I cried simchos torah when he held the torah for Hashem to open his heart to the torah and B"H he did. I am so happy. I do hope that one day he will be able to balance both house and learning

Because it was taken from me I appreciate so much more the ability to be zoche to support my husbands leanring

amother

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 2:17 am

the world's best mom wrote:

Except its not working well for her. She's exhausted- beyond exhausted, ready to collapse. She's depressed. She is having medical issues because of her exhaustion- her doctor said they won't even treat her medical issues until she gets more sleep because her lack of sleep is what is causing most of the issues so there's no point medicating- she just needs sleep. If she were totally happy, I would say nothing. But she isn't. She's having a really hard time, emotionally as well as physically, but how can I tell them to go down a notch in frumkeit, to do things less than ideal halachically?

zaq

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 3:30 am

amother wrote:

how can I tell them to go down a notch in frumkeit, to do things less than ideal halachically?

A previous poster said it's becoming an issue of pikuach nefesh and it sure does sound that way from the way you;re describing the situation. venishmartem me'od lenafshotechem means literally taking care of one's physical health, not solely one's soul.

But to answer your question, which is --I think--what to advise your friend--has she asked your advice? If not, then MYOB.

IMO, your set of answers is off because your basic premise is off. You seem to be assuming that more extreme is better. I don't blame you, really, there's been such a trend for years. Stringencies for the sheer joy of being stringent. Or maybe for the sheer joy of feeling superior. Excuse my ignorance, but when did davening vatikin become "ideal halachically"? When did allowing one's wife to work herself sick become a higher level of frumkeit?

Your friend is not doing herself any favors. Who say she has to entertain her kids all day? Aderabba, when they go to the playground, she SHOULD let them run around by themselves or play with other kids, while she keeps an eye from a distance. I don't say she should read a magazine--she should definitely be watching them for safety and security reasons--but she should be letting them do their own thing. And at home as well. Kids need to learn to entertain themselves, which they will never do if Mama is busy entertaining them all the time.

And why does Mama have to be "on top of" her kids all the time? Whatever that means, it doesn't sound good. Yes, a mother has to keep an eye on her children when they're small, again for reasons of safety and security, but there are ways to secure the environment so she doesn't have to be literally on top of them every moment.

Your friend has, sadly, also accepted the "more extreme is better" way of thinking. Those learning men, boy have they ever done a number on their women. Made them feel guilty about asking their dhs to shoulder the responsibility for their families. This is going to make me very unpopular here, but I feel the whole yeshiva/kollel system has infantilized men, allowing them, nay, encouraging them, to be perpetual bocherim, whose sole responsibility is to show up to minyan and shiur on time. G-d forbid they should spend time with the children they sired, G-d forbid they should miss evening seder to be actual partners with their wives. Their prime loyalty is to the minyan, to the chavrusah, to the beis medrash, to the rebbe, with the wife and kids squeezed in if they have a spare moment. You and your friend have both swallowed this lock, stock and barrel. Until you reject this mindset and decide that neither doormat nor martyr is a role you want to play, you will never change your situation.

Jewishmom8

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 3:33 am

cookiecutter wrote:

as part of that community I just wanted to say your statement is totally not true. can you explain more?

Jewishmom8

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 3:45 am

what your friend needs is a good rav or rebitzen to consult with.
running herself to the ground and getting major burnout is a big mistake.
her and her husband should go to a rav together to get clarity about what thier focus should be.
you said that
how can I tell them to go down a notch in frumkeit, to do things less than ideal halachically?
it isn't less ideal halachically to make sure you wife is happy and to help her. in my opinion its the opposite.
if he didnt want to do that he should have stayed single. now it could be she is saying don't stay home I am ok. somthing is going to give.
what is going on is not ok. they must spend time together as a couple.
I think the best thing for you to do is to tell her she would feel a lot better if they went to their rav together to get clarity about what hashem wants from them right now.

I think that sometimes its very hard to know what to do in terms of knowing what hashem wants from us in a given moment. everyone feels confusion sometimes. when I am confused I take my trusty tehillim out and say hashem I have no idea what the right thing to do is. please help guide me and give me focus to do the right thing in this moment. I also have a really great rebitzen who I bounce ideas off of. she helps me get focus and direction.
your a great friend!

Jewishmom8

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 3:48 am

zaq wrote:

you know what is really interesting.
I think that at times its the men but more often than not the women do it to themselves.
thinking its wrong to ask my husband for help
or it would be wrong to ask him to miss seder if I am sick.
or it would be wrong to ask him to stay home erev chag.
more often than not I see the women who don't manage they do it to themselves.
we hear stories of these amazing rebitznes of years past and we compare ourselves to them and try to be like them but many times that is a mistake. we need to be the best US that we can be coming from where we are coming from in our generation.

Last edited by Jewishmom8 on Mon, Jun 09 2014, 3:53 am; edited 1 time in total

June

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 3:49 am

Jewishmom8 wrote:

cookie cutter wrote:
1. Favoring "hard" religion over "soft" religion. Judaism is not just ritual. There are halachos and hashkafos of bein adam lachaveiro as well. But it's easy to measure how often someone goes to davening; and harder to measure how accomplished someone is interpersonally so we consider "tzadikim" to be the ones who daven more.

2. In the chareidi community, there is a pervasive perception that if you're managing you are not doing enough. IMO this is terrible. It causes anxiety, dissatisfaction, and a zillion other unhealthy dynamics.

as part of that community I just wanted to say your statement is totally not true. can you explain more?

I think her statement is based on her first point, on favoring "hard" religion. I've gotten the impression that some people in the chareidi community feel that in order to be a good jew you have to work yourself to the bone and perpetually be at the point of collapse.

imo that is a really sad way to go through life, and it makes me wonder if they really love being frum.

of course I know not everyone who lives like OP described have this take on yiddishkeit, but from what I've seen it is very pervasive among certain demographics