How Can You Do Everything? Should we push ourselves?

Kugglegirl

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 4:34 am

Rebbe Nachman says, "A little is also good."

A husband who goes out a few times a week to shiurim, is davening with a minyan more, has fixed times for learning in his week- he is growing.

A mother who is thinking about how to parent the children, is encouraging her husband to grow & is working to grow herself is setting an example for how to be a frum mother.

As for your friend & her situation- maybe you can find a time to learn with her while the children play for half an hour. A parenting book, or something on education from a Jewish perspective. There are many books like this. It can give you both a neutral basis from which to discuss family life and yiddishkeit.

amother

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 5:19 am

zaq wrote:

A previous poster said it's becoming an issue of pikuach nefesh and it sure does sound that way from the way you;re describing the situation. venishmartem me'od lenafshotechem means literally taking care of one's physical health, not solely one's soul.

But to answer your question, which is --I think--what to advise your friend--has she asked your advice? If not, then MYOB.

She specifically has asked my advice on her health and emotional issues. But I didn't want to get involved in their frumkeit and tell them to do what WE are doing, which definitely not ideal... Her husband may go overboard, imo, but we're going "underboard"... And I don't want to cause them any potential shalom bayis issues if my advice is that her husband should do x and he doesn't want to.

Quote:

IMO, your set of answers is off because your basic premise is off. You seem to be assuming that more extreme is better. I don't blame you, really, there's been such a trend for years. Stringencies for the sheer joy of being stringent. Or maybe for the sheer joy of feeling superior. Excuse my ignorance, but when did davening vatikin become "ideal halachically"? When did allowing one's wife to work herself sick become a higher level of frumkeit?

He is very learned, and apparently, according to many poskim, it is better to daven vasikin, to the extent that it is actually better to daven vasikin biyichidus than later with a minyan, but best obviously is vasikin with a minyan. And he DOES help with the kids. He's just as exhausted as she is from his rigorous schedule that he doesn't have so much koach, and neither does she.

FYI, as much as you want to "demonize" the chareidi system, this family is not chareidi.

amother

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 5:21 am

Jewishmom8 wrote:

what your friend needs is a good rav or rebitzen to consult with.
running herself to the ground and getting major burnout is a big mistake.
her and her husband should go to a rav together to get clarity about what thier focus should be.
you said that

That is what I will recommend to them. Thank you.
how can I tell them to go down a notch in frumkeit, to do things less than ideal halachically?

Quote:

it isn't less ideal halachically to make sure you wife is happy and to help her. in my opinion its the opposite.
if he didnt want to do that he should have stayed single. now it could be she is saying don't stay home I am ok. somthing is going to give.

He isn't reluctant to help. He does help. Its she who is reluctant to ask him because she doesnt want to bring him down in yiddishkeit, etc...

Quote:

I think the best thing for you to do is to tell her she would feel a lot better if they went to their rav together to get clarity about what hashem wants from them right now.

I think that sometimes its very hard to know what to do in terms of knowing what hashem wants from us in a given moment. everyone feels confusion sometimes. when I am confused I take my trusty tehillim out and say hashem I have no idea what the right thing to do is. please help guide me and give me focus to do the right thing in this moment. I also have a really great rebitzen who I bounce ideas off of. she helps me get focus and direction.
your a great friend!

100% agreed.

Onisa

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 6:29 am

A good life as a couple ( even jewish couple ) is when people grow. It seems to me that he is growing ( I hope he is really doing what he wants and feels right and not because his wife is waiting this from him or society or parents).
She isnt growing. Only a person who is healthy spiritually and emotionally and physically can fully grow ( before that he or she will face all these blocks stopping them from growing). If she wants to serve Hashem the best she should keep herself " the best".
Maybe she just lives " all for children or all for husband or both". That isnt healthy at all! She may end up all kinds of chronic illnesses and what not. It is called neuroses. Today she isnt taking enough care of herself and her helth, wellbeing but still does too much to her familly ( I would ask her " if your children need so much care or does your husband really needs so much food on shabbos) it well may be that she is playing a game " all my life is for you!" And benefits from toturing herself while being able to chase childrn and husband saying " I put all my life in You!".
One day she might be so tired that wont be able to help kids and then her husband. So how will that good intentions of " not disturbing my husband" end? Right, she will be in a hospital and her hb will have to forget of all vatikins and shiurim and run the house, take care of her.

mummiedearest

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 9:23 am

they should definitely go to a rav together. fact is, he is NOT growing. a man who is so particular about davening times while being so oblivious to his wife's obvious health issues has A LOT to work on. he has an obligation to care for his wife. she's been to doctors and has been told she desperately needs to sleep more. I'm sure he knows what the doctors say. if he knows this and is not doing everything in his power to allow her more sleep, he is SELFISH. she has a halachic obligation to care for her own health, and not asking him for his help means she is not taking care of her own (incredibly important) mitzvah. I see a woman in a load of trouble and a marriage with no communication/respect. I would not hesitate to tell her that her husband needs to stay home from vasikin, regardless of the op's husband's religiosity. this is not about frumkeit, it's about dysfunction. a functional couple would discuss the issues and come up with a change in schedule or a different system entirely.

and I hope this woman is on bc. I hope that's a given for her.

AlwaysGrateful

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 9:52 am

My husband has never missed a minyan (except in extreme circumstances -- when I had a baby, etc). He learns every night, many hours over the weekend, on off-days, etc.

BUT. If I'm sick, or postpartum, or just seriously overwhelmed, he talks to me about rearranging his schedule to be home during the more important times. That might mean that he learns more at night after the kids go to bed, or goes to a later minyan in the morning so I can sleep in, or whatever. I do feel guilty sometimes, asking him to stay home. But I have gotten better at it over the years.

This isn't a matter of going down in yiddishkeit. It's a matter of making choices based on keeping yourself and your family happy. For example, he used to wake up early to have a seder before Shacharis. He stopped that. Not because he was lazy, or because it was too hard for him to wake up in the morning. But because he found it affected his whole day for the worse...he was more tired and had less patience...so he saw it was NOT good for his avodas Hashem, and he stopped.

As for what you should say to her...I guess it depends on her husband. Is he completely clueless? Or just doesn't care? If the first, I think a talk between the two of them is iin order. Don't bring yourself into the picture at all; it has nothing to do with you. And if that doesn't work, yes, I'd say to talk to a Rav/Rebbetzin about it, maybe even one that could talk to the dh as well.

Mesiras nefesh for torah is wonderful. But not at the expense of her health.

StarrySky

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 11:28 am

Queen6 wrote:

I have yet to meet the person who really does it all. Many appear that way but keep in mind we have no idea what goes on behind closed doors.
I think the goal shouldn't be to do it all; the goal is a happy home with everyone using their full kochos trying as hard as possible to reach their full potential. That's different for every person, spouse, and family.
Keep trying but don't kill yourself to fit a certain "picture"

this is so true. we are all different. different things work for different people. there is time for everything. and sometimes that means skipping minyan. or not learning so much... honestly, I think in the case of your friend - its a major overkill what they are doing. I do not this it's good for either husband, or wife or kids.

of course, I am myself in a similar situation as OP. Worse though. I am a BT, my husband is a ger. We have been religious prob 8 yrs. He is getting disillusioned with yiddishkeit, period. If any of you read the post about a husband wanting to convert to islam, I can relate to that amother as well. men that do not fit the category of standard brown eyes, olive complexion bla bla look are often, maybe not purposely, mistreated in a way. and it affects men. but in my dh case he just came to the point where he doesnt see the value of "pointless repetion" 3 times a day. he says it makes him a worse person, and he is confident Hashem would not want him to be fake. My dh is a very very honest, analytical, thoughtful person. Never does anything rash or dumb. He thinks everything through. And he firmly believes that Hashem does not require this of us (or in this case of men) to daven same thing 3 times a day, to wake up crazy early to try make it to shul at the cost of your health (he gets up at 5.30 anyway to get ready or work), to be all worn out before you even got to the most important people you have in the world - which are your family. So... in a way its really nice, as OP said, At least I see him at night, when he is done with work and finishes up paperwork at home (around 8.30 -9). And just because it has been a while since he has come to this conclusion, and I have already dealt with it emotionally, mentally etc, I can now express all these thoughts. In the beginning, I was worried, unsure what to do, even distraught. But. I know my husband. I know how sincere and straitforward and honest he is, and I know that if he understands something to not be/be the right thing to do, he has to do it. Or else he will feel as a hypocrite. OP, I do not know what your dh's reasong is - WHY he is not doing "as much" as you would think he should, yiddishkeit wise, but maybe he is just being honest with himself? Appreciate the fact that he is there for you and kids and that you are happy. Happiness is very important. Hashem made us and gave us the gift of life, with chesed. I think he meant for us us to try make the most of our life and to be happy. What works for me or you or your friend maybe very different things. But I dont think we should try and fit some "standard". We do the best we can. And happiness, SB, kids - those , I think, are very very important gauges of how well are we doing our job.
just MHO.

amother

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 12:31 pm

happywoman wrote:

of course, I am myself in a similar situation as OP. Worse though. I am a BT, my husband is a ger. We have been religious prob 8 yrs. He is getting disillusioned with yiddishkeit, period. If any of you read the post about a husband wanting to convert to islam, I can relate to that amother as well. men that do not fit the category of standard brown eyes, olive complexion bla bla look are often, maybe not purposely, mistreated in a way. and it affects men. but in my dh case he just came to the point where he doesnt see the value of "pointless repetion" 3 times a day. he says it makes him a worse person, and he is confident Hashem would not want him to be fake. My dh is a very very honest, analytical, thoughtful person. Never does anything rash or dumb. He thinks everything through. And he firmly believes that Hashem does not require this of us (or in this case of men) to daven same thing 3 times a day, to wake up crazy early to try make it to shul at the cost of your health (he gets up at 5.30 anyway to get ready or work), to be all worn out before you even got to the most important people you have in the world - which are your family. So... in a way its really nice, as OP said.

OP here. My husband is exactly the same way- he'd rather talk to God in his own way when he's inspired to do it than repeat three times a day what rabbis said he should say- he feels like a faker davening, and finds a minyan annoying, he can't concentrate and is paying more attention keeping up with the chazan than to what he's saying.
And tefillin, he feels fake, he just doesn't connect with it at all.
If anyone has links to things to inspire people about davening, davening with a minyan, and tefillin, my husband is at the stage where he's happy to be inspired. He isn't, but wants to be.

kollel wife

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 1:04 pm

OP - you are asking a very hard question.
At one point earlier in my marriage I was very tired and it was affecting my marriage and Sholom Bayis, (too tired at night, etc) I asked advice of a Rebbetzin who said I should ask my husband to leave for 2nd seder late so I could like down after I come home from work. Initially I was shocked - right, but then we did this for a while, and it was helpful.

But she isn't asking you in that role of a Rebbetzin. You might suggest to her to ask someone like a Rov or Rebbetzin. Someone she and her husband both trust. You can tell her Rabbonim do sometimes recommend birth control (very frum Rabbonim) so a woman can get stronger and heal or in certain cases when the woman isn't very strong, and nursing drains her like pregnancies do, to space the children instead of nursing. I've heard it said, similar to how a choleh HAS to eat on Yom Kippur, a woman may HAVE to not have children. Maybe it was Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky, I'm not sure.
You can say these are suggestions. A Rav should really advise. Also, try to work with her on getting some help. You don't have to suggest her husband to be the help. He may be geshikte but may not be. Maybe the Rov will say he should help, but you can suggest girls or such. Try to also discuss household management strategies and see how you can help her. The kids can help more, ways to streamline laundry, shopping, cleaning.

amother

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 1:13 pm

kollel wife wrote:

OP - you are asking a very hard question.
But she isn't asking you in that role of a Rebbetzin. You might suggest to her to ask someone like a Rov or Rebbetzin. Someone she and her husband both trust. You can tell her Rabbonim do sometimes recommend birth control (very frum Rabbonim) so a woman can get stronger and heal or in certain cases when the woman isn't very strong, and nursing drains her like pregnancies do, to space the children instead of nursing. I've heard it said, similar to how a choleh HAS to eat on Yom Kippur, a woman may HAVE to not have children. Maybe it was Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky, I'm not sure.

She is on birth control. That wasn't even a question for them.

octopus

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 1:15 pm

amother wrote:

back in the day, ppl would spontaneously make their own tefillos at the set time. that was plan A. That art was lost, and chazal made a set tefilla for us. that was plan B. I always talk to Hashem in english. As long as your dh is talking to Hashem, I wouldn't be as worried. but maybe it's time for him to really learn the tefillos and their deeper meanings if he is feeling such a big disconnect.

amother

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 1:16 pm

I vote for saying something in a loving way. Obviously, a judgmental or harsh statement wouldn't really help. But from someone who had similar things to your friend going on, I wish someone would have said I love you I see you having a hard time, can I help you find a phone # for a rabbi to talk to, or can I relieve you in some way, or help you to see that it doesn't have to be like this. When you're in it, its hard to see the wood for the trees, iykwim. But now, a decade later, we are struggling to work out a lot of things that should have been addressed much earlier on. No, it won't break up our marriage but it has added a lot of difficulty and perhaps didn't need to be so. I wish my parents weren't so hands off and I wish my in-laws weren't so demanding.... please say something. if you really love and care for your friend, I truly believe that will come through.

cookiecutter

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 1:23 pm

Jewishmom8 wrote:

as part of that community I just wanted to say your statement is totally not true. can you explain more?

I am also part of that community, and I think it's true. I literally had someone with a chronic medical condition tell me the other day that she doesn't know how she can drop a chessed project she's working on because what else was she put on this world for?

You're right that the word "pervasive" was too much, but it is definitely common. I have a tendency to take things very literally and to internalize them quickly so I used to feel like I was never doing enough each time I heard a speech on the parsha. Now, I try to maintain a balance of sanity and productivity but I am still attuned to when people around me seem to struggle with it.

StarrySky

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 2:22 pm

amother wrote:

OP, I know how you feel.... And after spending hours and hours talking to my husband, I understand very well how he feels. I think if I were a man, I may have felt exactly the same about davening the way men are supposed to do. I wish they could talk... My husband ALSO says he would love to reconcile all this in his mind, is doing everything he can about it - talking to people at kollel, etc. Right now he is actually learning with the rosh kollel... he is really really trying. I guess I am at the point of just knowing I need to accept him for what he is and where he is, because he is being so honest with himself, Hashem, the world. I fee I need to respect and support that. I do with all my heart believe Hashem would deem this behavior proper. A man needs to feel right about what he is doing. So does the woman, of course.