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Torn bet. two priorities: I want to be the best mom and wife
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 9:02 am
Quote:
amother wrote:
Let him work as a rebbe, tutor, magid shiur....

those are important "professions" and if he is good at this he should certainly do that, but that's not LEARNING it's WORKING and once you are working might as well get a job that pays well.....kwim? I would think it's "better" to be a (let's say) dentist and work half day and learn half day than to be a rebbi all day.....just my $.02

This mentality has got me completely baffled. Someone who is teaching is not considered as if he is learning Torah? Does "learning Torah" only mean sitting with a chavrusah in a kollel and learning Gemara? Tanach, Halacha, and Chassidus don't count?
Amother, are you really saying that once you are getting paid, you might as well be doing anything? Because I think being a Rebbi, Rosh Yeshiva, Sofer, etc., is A LOT different than being a dentist or a lawyer!
And then I get an attitude that I don't value Torah study. shock


Quote:
The point of learning torah is to be able to apply it to your life, and if you're spending the whole time learning torah, you're not giving yourself a chance to even apply it to your daily life. Living all pi torah (in all senses of the word) is much harder than just learning torah.

Oh- not that I think NO ONE should be in kollel. I think all guys until they get married SHOULD be in kollel, learning torah to give them that integral core/basis for their marriage, and then learn for a bit afterwords as long as its not too hard on the woman. But once there is more than one kid in the picture, I think thats too hard of a responsibility being put on the wife- be a good mother, housewife, clean and cook, and make the money.

Oh, and for those few illuyim that will end up writing sfarim and changing the face of the torah world, they can learn in kollel for the rest of their lives so long as their wife has no problem with it. But most of the people in kollel won't end up doing that... I think every working guy SHOULD learn at least an hour a day, a bit during the day and a bit at night so he learns torah both day and night. But to spend the whole entire day- morning, afternoon, and night seder in the beis medrash while his wife works her tushy off to raise her 10 kids, make enough money to pay for them, as well as keeping the house up to standards... is a bit much and unreasonable...

nice post, breslov.


Last edited by gryp on Wed, May 02 2007, 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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creativemommyto3




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 9:48 am
amother wrote:
amother wrote:
Let him work as a rebbe, tutor, magid shiur....

those are important "professions" and if he is good at this he should certainly do that, but that's not LEARNING it's WORKING and once you are working might as well get a job that pays well.....kwim? I would think it's "better" to be a (let's say) dentist and work half day and learn half day than to be a rebbi all day.....just my $.02



At least they will still be involved with Torah and fulfilling their obligation as men at the same time.
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amother


 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 10:03 am
GR wrote:
Quote:
amother wrote:
Let him work as a rebbe, tutor, magid shiur....

those are important "professions" and if he is good at this he should certainly do that, but that's not LEARNING it's WORKING and once you are working might as well get a job that pays well.....kwim? I would think it's "better" to be a (let's say) dentist and work half day and learn half day than to be a rebbi all day.....just my $.02

This mentality has got me completely baffled. Someone who is teaching is not considered as if he is learning Torah? Does "learning Torah" only mean sitting with a chavrusah in a kollel and learning Gemara? Tanach, Halacha, and Chassidus don't count?
Amother, are you really saying that once you are getting paid, you might as well be doing anything? Because I think being a Rebbi, Rosh Yeshiva, Sofer, etc., is A LOT different than being a dentist or a lawyer!
And then I get an attitude that I don't value Torah study. shock



I am the amother above that you quoted. No need for shock faces. Yes teaching is not called learning full time. Again, I think it's very important to have teachers, rabbeim etc but don't kid yourself that it's called "learning" the way limud Torah is defined - which is yes, sitting with a chavrusa and learning Gemara (for a guy). Being a rebbi/magid shiur is indeed different than being a dentist in that it's what people call "klei kodesh" - you are surrounded by a more ruchniusdic atmosphere etc but again I personally think that if you work half a day as a dentist and spend the other half a day learning in kollel much more "limud Torah" is accomplished than if you are a rebbi the entire day....anybody else with me on this???
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amother


 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 10:07 am
breslov wrote:
Oh, and as an added point:
The point of learning torah is to be able to apply it to your life,..


Says who? The point of learning Torah is to learn Torah...
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 10:25 am
Quote:
the way limud Torah is defined - which is yes, sitting with a chavrusa and learning Gemara

I don't buy it, I'm sorry. I just don't believe it's true. Perhaps that's what you have to do in order to fit into the kollel lifestyle box, but that doesn't mean spending your time immersed in Torah in a different way is suddenly not "learning."

I don't buy the "accomplishing" attitude either. It doesn't matter if you've learned something once or a hundred times, you are still learning Torah.

And doesn't it say that you should learn each thing 100 times? And if you are used to learning it 100 times, then you still have not toiled over your Torah study until you have learned it 101 times!

That is why I need a shock.
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amother


 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 10:42 am
why can't you find an arrangement where your friend who has a kid at home and you send your two kids there, this way it is less and also you know who is babysitting. I just started sending my baby out at 21 months and it was the best thing for her. She is a different kid. She loves the company of kids her age and she became a much friendlier kid, and do you know what, in the beginning I thought that I would feel guilty but seeing how happy she is, I feel so good sending her there.

Why can't you send your older one to a small group for his age and then find a friend who is home anyway, or someone you trust to watch the second one. Also, sometimes being away from your kids makes you better mothers. I tried to work at home with having a baby around, it is doable but it is hard. If you have an easy baby, then maybe you could keep the baby home with you and then put in an extra hour for the time that you take off. Most of the time a newborn sleeps anyway.
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Seraph




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 11:18 am
amother wrote:
breslov wrote:
Oh, and as an added point:
The point of learning torah is to be able to apply it to your life,..


Says who? The point of learning Torah is to learn Torah...

"Says who" games are just silly. But if you can point me to where in the torah it mentions the mitzva of limud torah, I'll try to show you (because I can bet 100 bux that it says that) that the point of learning torah is to live al pi torah.

GR, I'm glad you like my post...
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 11:24 am
breslov, of course there is a mitzvah of Limud Torah day and night- "V'hgisah Bo Yomam V'Laylah." but there is also the other 613 Mitzvos (the ones that we do) that are incorporated into life.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 11:30 am
GR wrote:
Quote:
amother wrote:
Let him work as a rebbe, tutor, magid shiur....

those are important "professions" and if he is good at this he should certainly do that, but that's not LEARNING it's WORKING and once you are working might as well get a job that pays well.....kwim? I would think it's "better" to be a (let's say) dentist and work half day and learn half day than to be a rebbi all day.....just my $.02

This mentality has got me completely baffled. Someone who is teaching is not considered as if he is learning Torah? Does "learning Torah" only mean sitting with a chavrusah in a kollel and learning Gemara? Tanach, Halacha, and Chassidus don't count?
Amother, are you really saying that once you are getting paid, you might as well be doing anything? Because I think being a Rebbi, Rosh Yeshiva, Sofer, etc., is A LOT different than being a dentist or a lawyer!
And then I get an attitude that I don't value Torah study. shock


In seminary, I had a teacher who told us that she has to set aside specific time to herself to learn, and that her preparations to teach her students are not "learning". This made a lot of sense, and at any point where I have been teaching, I have seen the same thing: my preparations for teaching were not learning.

That's not to say that I think there's anything wrong with being involved in chinuch and that you're a "sell-out" or a "faker" for not learning all day.


To the OP: something's going to have to change. You can't stay at home and have your husband in Kollel, unless you're successfully able to work at home. I agree that it's EXTREMELY important for you to be able to raise your kids. For small children, the hours between 5 PM and 9 AM are virtually nonexistent. Yes, you'll feed supper and give a bath and put to sleep, but that's not the same thing as being mechanech your children all throughout the day and raising them as you see fit.

I am obviously someone who is strongly against long-term learning, and I don't understand the appeal of having a husband who is out all day not making a parnasa (I can't imagine there's a long-term kollel with a really GOOD stipend), and a wife who is working full-time while kids get sent from baby-sitter to baby-sitter (no matter how loving and caring she is). I don't understand why it's acceptable, and please don't anyone tell me that I don't value Torah study. It's that I value the healthy raising of a family over a newfangled idea like long-term kollel.
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Seraph




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 11:38 am
GR wrote:
breslov, of course there is a mitzvah of Limud Torah day and night- "V'hgisah Bo Yomam V'Laylah." but there is also the other 613 Mitzvos (the ones that we do) that are incorporated into life.

Where is that mitzva located? Vihigasa bo yomam valayla? Where does it say that?
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 11:39 am
Quote:
In seminary, I had a teacher who told us that she has to set aside specific time to herself to learn, and that her preparations to teach her students are not "learning". This made a lot of sense, and at any point where I have been teaching, I have seen the same thing: my preparations for teaching were not learning.

It doesn't matter to me, Crayon. If you are sitting in front of any part of the Torah and reading and understanding the words, I consider that to be learning on some kind of level. It doesn't matter if you can learn more or deeper in the same amount of time. The fact is, that you are learning Torah.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 11:41 am
GR wrote:
Quote:
In seminary, I had a teacher who told us that she has to set aside specific time to herself to learn, and that her preparations to teach her students are not "learning". This made a lot of sense, and at any point where I have been teaching, I have seen the same thing: my preparations for teaching were not learning.

It doesn't matter to me, Crayon. If you are sitting in front of any part of the Torah and reading and understanding the words, I consider that to be learning on some kind of level. It doesn't matter if you can learn more or deeper in the same amount of time. The fact is, that you are learning Torah.


Maybe you are yotzei the mitzvah, but you aren't really learning.

AllI think that means is that someone who teaches should also make time to learn.

This is off-topic from your issue with amother. I do not think it is more valuable necessarily to be a dentist/learner than a teacher all day.
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amother


 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 12:03 pm
Crayon210 wrote:
GR wrote:
Quote:
In seminary, I had a teacher who told us that she has to set aside specific time to herself to learn, and that her preparations to teach her students are not "learning". This made a lot of sense, and at any point where I have been teaching, I have seen the same thing: my preparations for teaching were not learning.

It doesn't matter to me, Crayon. If you are sitting in front of any part of the Torah and reading and understanding the words, I consider that to be learning on some kind of level. It doesn't matter if you can learn more or deeper in the same amount of time. The fact is, that you are learning Torah.


Maybe you are yotzei the mitzvah, but you aren't really learning.

AllI think that means is that someone who teaches should also make time to learn.

This is off-topic from your issue with amother. I do not think it is more valuable necessarily to be a dentist/learner than a teacher all day.


Crayon, you understood exactly what I was saying and we are in agreement in terms of what consitutes learning vs teaching. But NOWHERE did I say that it's more valuable to be a dentist/lerner than a teacher. all I said was that if you want to LEARN you accomplish more LEARNING while working the detist-half-day arrangement. I made no judgements on whether it's more valuable b'chlal!
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 12:11 pm
V'hagisa bo yomam valayla is in Yehoshua, Perek Aleph, I think posuk ches. But one could argue teaching comes into play there. Rather, I think when we say every day in davening "V'haarev na Hashem Elokeinu es divrei Sorasecha b'finu u’befee amicha bais yisroel, v’neeheyeh anachu vtzetzaeinu vtzetzaei kol amcha bais Yisrael koolanu yodei shimecha vlomdei sorasecha l’shma" -- we should be studying Torah for its own sake, purely for the limud of it. But I think this is fodder for a different thread.

Last edited by Hashem_Yaazor on Wed, May 02 2007, 12:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 12:13 pm
amother wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:
GR wrote:
Quote:
In seminary, I had a teacher who told us that she has to set aside specific time to herself to learn, and that her preparations to teach her students are not "learning". This made a lot of sense, and at any point where I have been teaching, I have seen the same thing: my preparations for teaching were not learning.

It doesn't matter to me, Crayon. If you are sitting in front of any part of the Torah and reading and understanding the words, I consider that to be learning on some kind of level. It doesn't matter if you can learn more or deeper in the same amount of time. The fact is, that you are learning Torah.


Maybe you are yotzei the mitzvah, but you aren't really learning.

AllI think that means is that someone who teaches should also make time to learn.

This is off-topic from your issue with amother. I do not think it is more valuable necessarily to be a dentist/learner than a teacher all day.


Crayon, you understood exactly what I was saying and we are in agreement in terms of what consitutes learning vs teaching. But NOWHERE did I say that it's more valuable to be a dentist/lerner than a teacher. all I said was that if you want to LEARN you accomplish more LEARNING while working the detist-half-day arrangement. I made no judgements on whether it's more valuable b'chlal!


Oh, okay. Yes, we're in exact agreement.
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Seraph




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 12:33 pm
Ok people, you made me do work, but I have an answer- where do I get it from that the point of learning torah is to apply it to your daily life:
I got it from "Al Parshas Hashavua" by R Meir Tzvi Grossman.
He brings down that Rabbi Yishmael says in Pirkei Avos (Perek Daled, mishna hey) "Halomed al minas lilmod- maspikin biyado lilmod ulelamed. [Someone who learns for the sake of learning accomplishes learning and teaching.] Vihalomed al minas laasos- maspikin biyado lilmod ulelamed lishmor vilaasos. [And one who learns for the sake of doing, accomplishes learning and teaching and keeping and doing.]"
"Bihavchana zu, bein shtei mataros halimud kove'ah rabbi yishmael [By this insight, between the two goals of learning, rabbi yishmael decides], ki hamatara ha'ikaris hi 'limud al minas laasos', [that the main goal is to learn in order to do] vi'ilu lilmod 'al minas lilmod' hi matara dchuya, bilti ritzuya." [and that learning for the sake of learning is the rejected? goal, and not wanted.]

This shows that the goal of learning is to be able to apply it to your life...
Not to mention the famous quote (if anyone can tell me where its from):
"Gdola torah shemevia lidei maaseh".
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Seraph




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 12:40 pm
And now I realize that it says it straight out in Yehoshua, where Hashem Yaazor directed me.

"Lo yamush sefer torah hazeh mipicha, vihagisa bo yomam valayla, limaan tishmor laasos kichol hakasuv bo. "(Perek Aleph, pasuk ches)
This sefer torah shouldnt be gone from your mouth, and you should think about it (rashi's definition, not mine) day and night, in order to keep and do all that is written in it.

Second half of the pasuk- the reason why we learn torah day and night is in order to live what is written in it.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 1:33 pm
Breslov, learning Torah fulltime does not contradict the need to live life al pi torah. One still needs to eat, daven, interact with people, travel to the Beis Medrash. There is plenty of time to apply Torah to life. Those who learn without a job are not doing second best.
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Health is a Virture




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 2:15 pm
if I am correct, the question was not a debate but rather advice. So, here goes.

it is possible for the mother to not work, husband learn full time in kollel (3 sedarim) and live. I know because we do it. We also live in Israel so in general people live here a lot more on bitachon level. And this way of life is not for everybody. You need to ask your Rav when it comes to this. But, the key is not how much money are we making, etc, but rather how is Hashem going to pay this bill for us? Sometimes it is rather adventurous where the money will come from...one never knows. But, I don't want to be dishonest in the fact that ever we really are low on funds, there are people that we can ask for money from.

But, for some, it definitely is possible. YOu just have to live very, very simply. For example, the wheel of my double stroller got lost. What to do? My dh had found an old doulbe stroller a while back in the garbage so lo and behold now we are using it. It has issues, but it's a small price to pay (pun intended) for my husband to be learning and me not working. One day I remarked, "we could use a baby swing." within the week, we found one in the garbage. This happened a different time with a small children' table...that day my dh found one! Now, I admit, some of these things do look like someone else's garbage, but in other words, it is possible!! We only spend money on things that we consider a necessity.

Now I do know others who tried this way of life and were not very successful. Everybody needs to do a careful analysis and find out what works for them.

If you don't mind getting money from the government (which in my opinion if all those drug addicts can get money from them, why can't you...you whose husband is learning), then that also opens up a host of other things. There are times that if you work less, I know in America, if your salary is very low then the government will even pay for your gas and electric bill!! rent subsidy, food stamps, health insurance, and the list goes on. BUT, you did mention that you have a mortgage, that might change things. I just don't know.

Hakadosh Baruch Hu has predetermined from Rosh Hashanah how much money you are going to make. Working requires you to put out more money, perhaps you don't really need a car...save a lot on car insurance. You have to sit down and really be honest about what things you can live without and what things you really need.

Perhaps your husband can still learn in kollel, but maybe in the evenings or duing lunch break, he can tutor younger bochurim...you can make a lot of money just from tutoring!!

You may also see once you stop working and are at home that really being home is not so easy and you would like to go out for a few hours a day. A lot of times people think they want to be home and then when they go out, they really they need that outlet of working.

You and your husband (or if your husband as you mentioned doesn't want to discuss too much) do all the legwork. Then, come before your husband with actual numbers and true honesty. Speak to others in similar situations, etc. After that, you and your husband should go together to speak to his Rav and come up with a good plan.

another option is to just take a little bit of a longer maternity leave, say 3 months, and see how you really like staying home. don't quit your job quite yet. And, then see, how it goes.

But, I would also calculate with taxes from working, how much money you are actually making, and all the different governmental aid you can get, it might be economical to work less. Also, States will often help with childcare assistance if you don't make enough money, but the childcare worker has to be properly credentialed. You can save a lot of money that way! I don't know where you live, but often someone in teh Kollel will be proficient with all this stuff.

One last thing. Even if you are working, you are growing just by the mere fact that your husband is learning. We don't understand how ruchnius works, but somehow your husband's learning makes a roshem on you, as well as your children. We don't understand this, but I can tell you, I see a difference!

If you want to ask me more detailed personal questions I can help you, but I don't really know all that much stuff about stuff in America, but I may be able to find out if you tell me what city (I know others in similar situations :-))

Kal Bidei Shamayim!!! hakadosh baruch Hu is truly running this world!!! Good luck!

Hope this post won't stir up too much controversy, and hope it made some sense :-)
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amother


 

Post Wed, May 02 2007, 7:27 pm
I'm just curious, is someone supporting you even a little bit? How do you pay for food with no money? What about rent? You need a little bit of money to live?
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