AGT-The school responds

Sanguine

Tue, Jun 24 2014, 7:07 am

Quote:

He should be publically apologizing for chilul hashem, and for insulting his mother and classmates.

He didn't insult his mother. she was basking in his glory. You don't think she knows what type of jokes her husband tells. She let her husband tell that same joke in public and she knows her son tells them too.
What is the point in forcing him to publicly apologize? To totally embarrass this kid whose father told him to tell these jokes? Maybe make the parents get up on public television and apologize for not raising their child in the way of the Torah Rolling Laughter

that's what would happen. Next we'll let all the mothers of rapists and murderers get up and apologize for not raising their child right. At least the world will agree that someone did something wrong. You want him to apologizeto his classmates? He's a hero in their eyes and they're not going to take mussar from him of why it was wrong. They'll know he was forced to do it.

So let's publicly embarrass this kid. Let's tell him that he should always question anything his parents tell him. Let's tell the world that Jews are better than them. Let's make him hate Judaism cause it got him into the situation of public embarrassment.

The principal of the school understands this kid, his parents and the whole community. And he understands what Chinuch is. It's not about teaching through embarrassment.

DrMom

Tue, Jun 24 2014, 8:30 am

Sanguine wrote:

Quote:

He should be publically apologizing for chilul hashem, and for insulting his mother and classmates.

If this kid is actually a hero to his classmates, and if his parents are heroes to the other parents, the there's something seriously wrong with that community, and/or with the chinuch they receive at that school.

Chinuch is not about embarrassment, but it is about taking responsibility for one's mistakes, and correcting them. How can someone makes jokes about oral sx and his mother and classmates in front of millions of people and *not* be embarrassed, and yet be embarrassed to write a letter discussing why this was wrong?

I don't think we should be afraid of expecting some very basic level of behavior on the part of our young people for constant fear of "making then hate Judaism." If so, let's all become Unitarians or Secular Humanists and call it a day.

Sanguine

Tue, Jun 24 2014, 8:51 am

the principal has a problem cause the parents were behind this. A school can make rules in school and try to michanech their students but the parents approved of this (maybe not now). I don't think this boy saw this as so bad cause his father told him that it's a little daring but that's entertainment. Now that the boy isn't being punished or embarrassed it's still the school's job to teach their students about why such jokes are wrong. The boy was listening to his parents.

If my son gets in a fight in school the school can punish him. If I told him to go punch out that annoying kid after school, I'm the one who's wrong. The school can tell all the boys that they don't approve of that and won't allow it at school. But they have to first teach my son why a ben-Torah does not do something like that, even out of school cause I obviously think it's OK

I don't think it's OK but I agree with the letter

rosehill

Tue, Jun 24 2014, 9:53 am

DrMom wrote:

Chinuch is not about embarrassment, but it is about taking responsibility for one's mistakes, and correcting them. How can someone makes jokes about oral sx and his mother and classmates in front of millions of people and *not* be embarrassed, and yet be embarrassed to write a letter discussing why this was wrong?

Maybe I read a different letter, but I thought that was EXACTLY what Rabbi Lookstein did!
He condemned the behaviour unequivocally, and made it clear he expects it not to happen again.
This was a letter that was sent to the entire parent body, and which Rabbi Lookstein may have (correctly) assumed to be forwarded on. It strongly implies that further conversations were had privately with the boy and his parents, where he may have expressed just the outrage you're all clamoring for.

But that's not our business.

Some perspective. Josh didn't kill anyone, didn't burn down a building, didn't molest anyone, didn't steal millions of dollars from the government. He told some dumb dirty jokes. Not his, WDS's, Modern Orthodoxy's or Yiddishkeit's finest hour.
But hardly the crime of the century.

The kids we should be worrying about now are Eyal, Gilad, and Naftali. Let Josh's 15 minutes of fame end.

naturalmom5

Tue, Jun 24 2014, 9:55 am

Sanguine wrote:

(sorry, I can't stop quoting this letter)
That's where you're wrong. I'm sure that no non-Jew gave this show more than 2 minutes thought. In the wide world dirty jokes aren't so shocking. get a TV and watch. You'll see this wasn't outrageous.
mdoif - you never should have watched that clip and you shouldn't be on the internet. I would think it's against your unbendable laws (it is in Chareidi neighborhoods in Israel). You have no right to judge how other Jews view orthodoxy and chinuch of their children. You have no right to judge another Jew. I pity the fine Jews that live in your neighborhood, doing their best to be true Shomrei Torah and Mitzvot, and they have G-d's secretary as a neighbor always keeping track.

That's actually where you are wrong
My husband has a childhood friend since elem school
He is now a Lutheran pastor in the Midwest
He emailed my husband , who wasn't even aware of this whole story and said, so tell me again , Steve , what is the difference between liberal reform Jews and MO
My husband hasn't replied , what do you think he should say ?

5*Mom

Tue, Jun 24 2014, 10:17 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

If you husband is neither liberal reform nor MO I think he should honestly say he doesn't have enough firsthand knowledge to give an accurate answer.

Talya

Tue, Jun 24 2014, 10:18 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

One person making one bad choice doesn't represent them all. I don't get the problem.

MaBelleVie

Tue, Jun 24 2014, 10:23 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

Was he expecting a more public condemnation from the school or a representative of MO?

Perhaps your husband should forward him the response from the school so he understands their perspective.

amother

Tue, Jun 24 2014, 10:30 am

Heyaaa wrote:

Sanguine and onisa, +1000

The community I come from is very rw yeshivish. I left that because of a lot of what I saw in their Jewish observance was based on what the neighbors think. Everyone was trying to be as frum as everyone else and it was all about gayva and shidduchim (also gayva) and being 'the best'. I saw that it wasn't real bec they preach all these wonderful things but meanwhile if you can find a way to talk about another person doing a perceived aveira (yes I know it's a mitzva to talk about it so we know where we stand) everyone eats it up and is thrilled.

Dh on the other hand comes from a very lw mo community where all the kids fool around and these jokes aren't repulsive just shocking coming from a kid that timid and on national tv. But they would only be surprised to hear a 12 year old tellling these jokes to his friends. He's moving more to the right because he feels that there level of observance is close to traditional and he wants more.

But we both agree that the way mo deal with people who are unlike them is far superior to the way the more strict communities deal with it. No one is ever a lost cause and no one is ever kicked out. Maybe it's too much acceptance but you need a navi to tell you how much is too lax. But you need your heart and your mind to know that really the chareidi response of throwing away kids (and while were at it shidduchim) is all about gayva.

Like doesnt do this justice, where is the LOVE button

Sanguine

Tue, Jun 24 2014, 10:42 am

rosehill wrote:

We hang out here and have all the answers. I trust Rabbi Lookstein to understand the whole picture and deal with it properly.
Let's keep things in perspective.

Barbara

Tue, Jun 24 2014, 11:14 am

mdoif wrote:

That's not the point. You argued that if Hashem accepts someone's tshuva, so should we. I pointed out that Hashem doesn't always accept tshuva so readily.

So, you think that Hashem would not be willing to accept the tshuva of a 12 year-old boy who made a mistake. That his school should kick him to the curb (and, presumably, that the other schools that service his neighborhood should not accept him).

That's it. You're 12 years old, you made a mistake, Hashem hates you, we all hate you. You cannot learn gemorroah and chumash, cannot learn to be a Jew. You can never be redeemed. We don't want you anymore.

Is that how you would treat your children should they ever make a mistake?

sky

Tue, Jun 24 2014, 11:16 am

Talya wrote:

One person making one bad choice doesn't represent them all. I don't get the problem.

I agree with DrMom.

It sure does. When a jew is in the news for stealing or acting unethical everyone says those Jews. Even posters on here talk about how unhonest the Jewish community is - and that is because of a few individuals.

I don't think the letter should have been stronger because he is just a kid and I think you get a lot farther being nice. What would pushing people away and embarrassing them further achieve?

but I think it is a mistake to believe our actions don't represent the klal as whole.

amother

Tue, Jun 24 2014, 11:32 am

DrMom wrote:

Why do you feel that you are entitled to an apology from this boy?

Do you watch AGT on a regular basis? Did you watch it that night? Or did you watch this clip to see the kid tell dirty jokes? And if the latter, what does that say about you, that knowing what it was, you watched? Maybe each and every one of us who watched the clip knowing that it was a Jewish boy telling dirty jokes should be doing tshuva, asking Hashem for forgiveness. Maybe each of us should be asking the CHILD for forgiveness, because we are the ones who purposely increased the magnitude of his error.

Do you live in his community? Do you know him? Do your kids attend that school? Do you attend his shul? Do your kids hang out with him or his siblings?

I don't get why people who only know about this because they heard that this child committed a "chilul Hashem" and couldn't wait to see it themselves, so they could condemn him, feel they're entitled to an apology, or even to know what is going on between him and those who do know him. What he says to his principal, his teachers, his rabbis, his peers ... that's personal. What he says to Hashem is personal, too.

From what I hear, he's actually a really nice kid from a really nice family that is devoted to Judaism. Let's hope this is the worst thing he ever does, and that he and his family will be laughing about it at the bar mitzvahs of his own sons.

SRS

Tue, Jun 24 2014, 12:27 pm

I watch AGT because I love a variety show. This was a horrific and was a complete chillul Hashem. But if we really believe that children are entitled to an education, then so is this kid and he should be provided appropriate guidance to get him on the right track and I would say he needs a Torah education more than others!

I personally do not believe every child deserves a private school education and if he is telling these type of jokes in school regularly, I would be concerned. I somehow doubt that is the case. His delivery was bad enough that even if he tried to tell other kids, they would not giggle like the carpool of kids I had when a teacher go married and one of the boys declared that now she can "do it." When I asked what that meant, my son informed me that I would not understand or know what she is doing. Clearly "it' is funny and clearly no parent ever did "it."

As a parent, I am more concerned about children with behavior issues (this would not exclude my kids at every moment) that interrupt the classroom to the point that it destroys the environment for other children.

b from nj

Tue, Jun 24 2014, 2:06 pm

amother wrote:

Just for the record, I was innocently watching b/c my 15 year old DD called me & my DH over to watch with her b/c a kid with a yarmulka was gonna be performing. We were all anxiously awaiting being proud of a fellow Jewish teen (just like when Edon performed last year) & we were seriously stunned & horrified by the words that were coming out of his mouth. & please don't tell me what a wonderful family he is from b/c I saw the clip posted of his dad telling the sword swallowing joke at a comedy club in 2011. You want to think this is a one time mistake? Fine but frankly I don't believe it & although I do not know this family, seeing their behavior on TV made me lose any respect I might have had for them (not that they need my respect) but anyhow...