Ultra-Orthodox integration: It takes two to tango

amother

Sat, Jun 28 2014, 5:00 pm

binayeseira wrote:

Um, but of course.

And which population are you referring to that only takes and doesn't give?

Are you the referring to the one that created Yad Sarah, Yad Eliezer, Yad L'achim (Peilim), ZAKA, Hatzalah, Keren Shviis, etc., etc., etc.?

Are you talking about the one that is moser nefesh to oversee our kashruth, mikvaoth and the religious education?

Are you talking about the one with such great philanthropists as the Reichmans, Gutniks, Wolfsons, Esformeses and oh so many "smaller" ones?

Are you talking about the one that has askanim for the klal in any field that you can ever think of?

Or are vou talking about some other population????

Oh, please, sequoia, do elaborate.

I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make but I'm assuming it's something along the lines that these chareidi philanthropists not only help chareidim to be reliant on those within their circle, but even reach out to non-chareidim.

If that was your point, your list had at least one name to your detriment. I only know one of those personally and that family is far from chareidi. I think he would be honored that someone called him chareidi but with his seruga (OMG!) and a wife who doesn't cover her hair, I would find it hard to call them chareidi. They do love yeshivish people but they are Modern Orthodox who reach out from their circle to help those who are not their own. They're true tzaddikim but including their name, considering that they are the opposite of what I think you were trying to approve, might have weakened your argument.

etky

Sat, Jun 28 2014, 5:02 pm

binayeseira wrote:

You beat me too it MaBelleVie (I suppose it’s because we made early Shabbos yesterday).

Sequoia, -- if you have a different version of the Torah than we do, please tell me what is bothering you (I.e., what your version says) and I will straighten it out with the true one.

As for the chareidi version of the Torah – look at Vayikra 26:3-14. That is the contract we follow based on Rashi there (26:3).

It is obvious that you don’t follow this version. You must be following the second half of the contract from Vayikra 26:15-46.

While I am posting, you still did not answer my question about what segment of the population only takes and does not contribute. Please elaborate (instead of trying to change the subject ).

To understand what it means to contribute according to my version of the Torah, please see this blog post http://achaslmaala.blogspot.co......html

So it one doesn't follow the charedi conception of what "amelim ba'torah" represents then they are spurning the Torah and invoking G-d's wrath and the ensuing punishments?
To be honest I find the arrogant tone of your post and the view point that you espouse extremely disturbing.

Onisa

Sat, Jun 28 2014, 5:15 pm

Etky,
I have few questions. If the child from early age doesnt show interest in full-time kolel learning but is very good in repariring cars, should the whole community still prepare him only for one duty, the full time learner? ( because where I live I for sure see how the presure of community tells that everyone should be full time in kolel).

I also see that chareidi society is lacking in knowlegde in physics, chemistry and ect. Such knowledge isnt just to intertain somebodies mind but to make better choices in life.
Charedi schooling for girls is horrible and it is very hard for them to obtainwell-paid jobs. Husbands are in kolel, women earn pennies.. It is obvious for me that hareidi society needs people from outside to teach them or die in hunger.

binayeseira

Sat, Jun 28 2014, 5:30 pm

etky wrote:

I never made any distinctions in ameilim b'Torah. Go ahead and do it your way - if it's any different.

What it does say is that amailus b'Torah - any style, is the best contribution that can be made because it brings asll the brchos in the rest of the contract including peace and assurances that our sons are not ch"v kidnapped.

And the chareidim are doing more ameilus b'Torah contributing than anybofdy else.

THEREFORE, to be honest, I find this misguided mishugoss about some segemnt of society taking and not giving anything in return more than arrogant. It is downright inflammatory. And you seem to support that position.

No less disturbing.

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Jun 28 2014, 5:34 pm

binayeseira wrote:

Binayeseira, I read the bog post and the majority of that blog has me extremely worried for Judaism. If that is truly how you (and the entire charedi population) see things, I feel like its something breaking away from real judaism.

We have poverty, infertility, war, drought etc for the reasons this rav wrote? I am not part of that judaism and neither are most of the frum people that I know. Im not part of a religion that blames war on Jews not being commited enough to learn torah. Im not part of a Judaism that blames infertility on people not doing the light mitzvot.
Terrible in my opinion, just terrible. All that blame.

binayeseira

Sat, Jun 28 2014, 5:36 pm

amother wrote:

My point is really that we are all one klall and everybody who has ahavas Yisroel contributes what he has nad this condescending talk about one segment being only takers and not givers - which I did not originate, I only responded to it - is malicous and blasphemous. And to think it could get double-digit likes on a forum like this!

etky

Sat, Jun 28 2014, 5:41 pm

binayeseira wrote:

Can you show me exactly where I said that in my post?
The article was thought provoking and made some interesting points, even if I did not agree with them all or found some of them unrealistic. It certainly was more balanced than the viewpoint that you are putting forth.

binayeseira

Sat, Jun 28 2014, 5:41 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

He sources everything - all from the Torah and chazal. Evidently you do not uphold these sacred sources. In truth, the difference between non-chareidim and chareidim is that chareidim take the words of Torah and chazal at face value.

This is what you are calling terrible.

binayeseira

Sat, Jun 28 2014, 5:49 pm

etky wrote:

Can you show me exactly where I said that in my post?

You did not say it explicitly but if you see arrogance in my defending the "segment of society" that was bad-mouthed by sequoia, you are evidently in support of her.

Quote:

The article was thought provoking and made some interesting points, even if I did not agree with them all or found some of them unrealistic. It certainly was more balanced than the viewpoint that you are putting forth.

Well then, why don't you consider my viewpoint to be in line with his and then we are both more balanced? Deal??

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Jun 28 2014, 6:01 pm

binayeseira wrote:

OK, I have now looked into some of your "sources" and yes, I put that in brackets because I looked them up and it is not what you said.

The pasuk about infertility is soooooo roughly translated that it is unbelievable. This is what devarim perek 7 pasuk 14 says: Thou shalt be blessed above all peoples; there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle.
It does not give a reason. Full stop. Where is there a reason? Please explain how his source gives a reason?

Also what he wrote about shalom bayit, im sorry but Mishlei 16:7 says: When a man's ways please the LORD, He maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him. Nothing about shalom bayit.

Im sorry, but his sources are beyond stretched and Im not buying them.

binayeseira

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 2:58 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Pasuk 7:14 is a "reward" for observing 7:12. I think it's very clear in the Chumash and from how he writes his post.

Quote:

Also what he wrote about shalom bayit, im sorry but Mishlei 16:7 says: When a man's ways please the LORD, He maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him. Nothing about shalom bayit.

Im sorry, but his sources are beyond stretched and Im not buying them.

His main source is really the midrash in Yalkut Shimoni 954. The pasuk in Mishlei is the pasuk that Yalkut Shimoni is discussing and explains to mean shalom bayit.

You can't do just half of the homework!

Last edited by binayeseira on Sun, Jun 29 2014, 3:03 am; edited 1 time in total

binayeseira

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 3:02 am

5mom wrote:

"As for the chareidi version of the Torah – look at Vayikra 26:3-14. That is the contract we follow based on Rashi there (26:3)."

Rashi there simply says that people should toil in Torah.
Given that Rashi himself worked for a living (and managed more than a little bit of ameilus in Torah) it's fairly dishonest to quote this in support full-time kollel learning.

Rav Hirshman who wrote the post I linked to, has a book called One Above and Seven Below where I source the things I am saying. He deals with your comment in chapter 2 of the book whixch is appropriately named "The Meaning of Toil".

If you really want to understand what these pasukim mean, I recommend this book.

5mom

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 3:27 am

binayeseira wrote:

And with all due respect to Rav Hirshman, classic Jewish sources did not define ameilus as meaning contemporary kollel. This is a 20th century reform, contrary to long-standing tradition. Jews live in the world, not outside it.

binayeseira

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 4:47 am

5mom wrote:

The said chapter is based on a well known gemara in Brachos. You can't get more classic than that.
with all due respect to you, as long as you don't read the book or hear out the chareidi ideology from somebody who knows it, you are shooting in the dark.

BTW, why do you (or anybody) have a problem with how chareidim understand amailus b'Torah and apply it within their own community?? Nobody is forcing you to send money to a kollel. If you don't think full time kollel is good for klal Yisroel then don't do it!

You can say that I am repeating the trigger question from Elisheva25 to this whole discussion. Why should one population be bent on changing another one?

slushiemom

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 5:13 am

binayeseira wrote:

Actually, that's not true. I live in Bet Shemesh, and there was a city council meeting on Thursday night. Our newly re-elected mayor, who kowtows to the chareidi exremist rabbis in the city just passed a 28,000,000 NIS addition to the discounts that Kollel families get from arnona. This city cannot afford that, so how did he make up for that? By passing a yearly 1,000 nis ADDITION on arnona payments for anyone who has a house 160 meters or bigger (AKA, mostly non-kollel/chareidi families). That's me. So yea, I'm being forced to support those who choose not to work. And yea, I and the rest of my community are highly PISSED about it. They are taking money from us to give to the kollel families. Luckily, we have MK Dov Lipman in our corner (who ate at my house yesterday for lunch on Shabbat, so this is firsthand) who said that he will absolutely be stopping this new law at the government level.

DrMom

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 5:14 am

binayeseira wrote:

Just wanted to point out there is actually ample reason to object to someone interpreting amailus b'Torah as "we must study full time and not work" when this group also forces others to *fund* this lifestyle.

For example, in Israel there is tremendous resentment of the current paradigm whereby other sectors need to fund the charedi sector and their new interpretation of amailus b'Torah. Many people think, "Of course you can live the lifestyle you want, but why should I pay for it?" When you factor in the lack of army service, it does not make for a healthy relationship with non-charedi Jews.

5mom

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 5:21 am

binayeseira wrote:

Who's changing here?
I believe you are referring to the Gemara in Barachos 35b
ר' חנינא בר פפא רמי כתיב (הושע ב) ולקחתי דגני בעתו וגו' וכתיב (דברים יא) ואספת דגנך וגו' ל"ק כאן בזמן שישראל עושין רצונו של מקום כאן בזמן שאין ישראל עושין רצונו של מקום ת"ר ואספת דגנך מה ת"ל לפי שנא' (יהושוע א) לא ימוש ספר התורה הזה מפיך יכול דברים ככתבן ת"ל ואספת דגנך הנהג בהן מנהג דרך ארץ דברי ר' ישמעאל ר"ש בן יוחי אומר אפשר אדם חורש בשעת חרישה וזורע בשעת זריעה וקוצר בשעת קצירה ודש בשעת דישה וזורה בשעת הרוח תורה מה תהא עליה אלא בזמן שישראל עושין רצונו של מקום מלאכתן נעשית ע"י אחרים שנא' (ישעיהו סא) ועמדו זרים ורעו צאנכם וגו' ובזמן שאין ישראל עושין רצונו של מקום מלאכתן נעשית ע"י עצמן שנא' (דברים יא) ואספת דגנך ולא עוד אלא שמלאכת אחרים נעשית על ידן שנא' (דברים כח) ועבדת את אויביך וגו' אמר אביי הרבה עשו כרבי ישמעאל ועלתה בידן כר' שמעון בן יוחי ולא עלתה בידן

You will see at the end that Rashbi's view of withdrawing and waiting for others to do for you is rejected categorically.

If you radically change normative Jewish thought while at the same time claiming that you represent the only form of authentic Judaism, and expect other people to send their sons to protect your borders and their tax money to subsidize your life, yeah, I've got a problem with that.

Oh, and did I mention that my husband took early retirement so he could learn full time? Trust me, I have nothing against learning. Just do it on your own dime and don't pretend you're doing anyone else a favor.