Ultra-Orthodox integration: It takes two to tango

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binayeseira

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 3:19 am

5mom wrote:

Who's changing here?
I believe you are referring to the Gemara in Barachos 35b
ר' חנינא בר פפא רמי כתיב (הושע ב) ולקחתי דגני בעתו וגו' וכתיב (דברים יא) ואספת דגנך וגו' ל"ק כאן בזמן שישראל עושין רצונו של מקום כאן בזמן שאין ישראל עושין רצונו של מקום ת"ר ואספת דגנך מה ת"ל לפי שנא' (יהושוע א) לא ימוש ספר התורה הזה מפיך יכול דברים ככתבן ת"ל ואספת דגנך הנהג בהן מנהג דרך ארץ דברי ר' ישמעאל ר"ש בן יוחי אומר אפשר אדם חורש בשעת חרישה וזורע בשעת זריעה וקוצר בשעת קצירה ודש בשעת דישה וזורה בשעת הרוח תורה מה תהא עליה אלא בזמן שישראל עושין רצונו של מקום מלאכתן נעשית ע"י אחרים שנא' (ישעיהו סא) ועמדו זרים ורעו צאנכם וגו' ובזמן שאין ישראל עושין רצונו של מקום מלאכתן נעשית ע"י עצמן שנא' (דברים יא) ואספת דגנך ולא עוד אלא שמלאכת אחרים נעשית על ידן שנא' (דברים כח) ועבדת את אויביך וגו' אמר אביי הרבה עשו כרבי ישמעאל ועלתה בידן כר' שמעון בן יוחי ולא עלתה בידן

You will see at the end that Rashbi's view of withdrawing and waiting for others to do for you is rejected categorically. If you radically change normative Jewish thought while at the same time claiming that you represent the only form of authentic Judaism, and expect other people to send their sons to protect your borders and their tax money to subsidize your life, yeah, I've got a problem with that.

Oh, and did I mention that my husband took early retirement so he could learn full time? Trust me, I have nothing against learning. Just do it on your own dime and don't pretend you're doing anyone else a favor.

There are way too many misconceptions here for me to respond to . The bottom line here is that the critical posters here do not appreciate the value of chareidi level learning to want to participate in it or to promote it. I did not get on to this thread to sell anybody a bill of goods.

I will comment that the gemara in Brachos does not "categorically reject" nor delegitimatize the position of Rashbi in any way. It merely states that it is not viable for most people. To eleaborate further, I will let my "mentor" speak for himself. He does not overlook any part of this gemara.

It took me a while to find this link:

http://achaslmaala.blogspot.co......html

The point I want to make (and he does too) is that this idea is not a "20th century construct". People have been following Rashbi's method ever since his time which was 2000 years ago.

5mom

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 3:23 am

What are the misconceptions??

rosehill

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 3:53 am

binayeseira wrote:

I never made any distinctions in ameilim b'Torah. Go ahead and do it your way - if it's any different.

What it does say is that amailus b'Torah - any style, is the best contribution that can be made because it brings asll the brchos in the rest of the contract including peace and assurances that our sons are not ch"v kidnapped.

And the chareidim are doing more ameilus b'Torah contributing than anybofdy else.

THEREFORE, to be honest, I find this misguided mishugoss about some segemnt of society taking and not giving anything in return more than arrogant. It is downright inflammatory. And you seem to support that position.

No less disturbing.

How's that working out?

#eyalgiladnaftali

Heyaaa

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 4:00 am

rosehill wrote:

How's that working out?

#eyalgiladnaftali

It worked out really well considering that the three boys were yeshiva boys.

The world isn't so black and white that if you learn a mitzva you can avoid bad. We need an army, period. If you don't think we need an army then try going to gaza or Ramallah for a day while having everyone in your back seat learning Torah and with a shiur playing on your stereo. Let me know when you get back.

binayeseira

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 4:08 am

5mom wrote:

What are the misconceptions??

In these two paragraphs:

You will see at the end that Rashbi's view of withdrawing and waiting for others to do for you is rejected categorically.

If you radically change normative Jewish thought while at the same time claiming that you represent the only form of authentic Judaism, and expect other people to send their sons to protect your borders and their tax money to subsidize your life

There are about 4 misconceptions but I don't have the time or energy to deal with them online.

The bottom line is that tthe critical posters are those who do not think serious Torah learning should be supported by the public. This attitude obviuosly clashes with the chareidi attitude and so results in a permanent stalemate.

The reality is that as a rule, the chareidi Toerah world is only supported by those who are happy to support it. The story in Beit shemesh by the other poster is a real one-of-a-kind back door exeption to the norm.

I am sorry but I cannot invest any more time into this thread.

5*Mom

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 4:32 am

binayeseira wrote:

The reality is that as a rule, the chareidi Toerah world is only supported by those who are happy to support it. The story in Beit shemesh by the other poster is a real one-of-a-kind back door exeption to the norm.

This is simply untrue. In any municipality in which dwell large numbers of kollel learners who receive massive arnona discounts, who do you think makes up the shortfall? The working class families, who don't qualify for the discounts. Now, some of these working class are also chareidim and some of them may be perfectly happy with paying your share. But I am NOT perfectly happy with paying your share. But the iriyah, of course, doesn't care what I am or am not willing to pay for.

When my husband was learning full time, we did not avail ourselves of the arnona discount to which we were entitled because we weren't going to make a personal choice like kollel on someone else's cheshbon. We cancelled our avtachat hachnasa after a very short time for the same reason.

It comes down to it being a matter of "magia li" vs. personal integrity. Some people have it; some don't.

slushiemom

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 4:36 am

5*Mom wrote:

I usually stay out of these threads for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that there is no clear and consistent definition of "chareidi" or "ultra-orthodox." One can't have an intelligent discussion if the terms cannot be clearly defined.

But I would like to comment on this:
This is simply untrue. In any municipality in which dwell large numbers of kollel learners who receive massive arnona discounts, who do you think makes up the shortfall? The working class families, who don't qualify for the discounts. Now, some of these working class are also chareidim and some of them may be perfectly happy with paying your share. But I am NOT perfectly happy with paying your share. But the iriyah, of course, doesn't care what I am or am not willing to pay for.

When my husband was learning full time, we did not avail ourselves of the arnona discount to which we were entitled because we weren't going to make a personal choice like kollel on someone else's cheshbon. We cancelled our avtachat hachnasa after a very short time for the same reason.

It comes down to it being a matter of "magia li" vs. personal integrity. Some people have it; some don't.

That's true integrity and seems to me to be way more in line with "authentic Torah Judaism" than the masses who avail themselves of these discounts on the backs of the rest of the country.

I'm all for a Yissochar/Zevulun arrangement. But let both parties agree, and let the Zevulun decide which Yissochar he wants to support.

slushiemom

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 4:46 am

binayeseira wrote:

Just out of curiosity, do you agree that these new arnona laws are wrong, and should NOT be passed? Do you agree that it's wrong to force people to fund the kollel lifestyle against their will?

Also, unfortunately it's NOT a one-off exception. All over Israel, the general public is subsidizing the kollel lifestyle.

DrMom

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 5:18 am

binayeseira wrote:

To understand what it means to contribute according to my version of the Torah, please see this blog post http://achaslmaala.blogspot.co......html

An observation:
It seems that 80% of your posts refer to this blog or to the book the author of the blog wrote.

DrMom

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 5:23 am

binayeseira wrote:

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Barbara

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 7:46 am

binayeseira wrote:

Do I understand that you oppose public support of kollel in Israel? You say that the Charedi Torah world is (should be?) supported only by those happy to support it. Given that a large portion of the Israeli public apparently does not wish to do so, that would mean no government support.

Or am I missing something?

marina

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 8:16 am

binayeseira wrote:

Ok,did you just imply that the kidnapping happened because not everyone is religious?

Did you just really say that?

Hashem is such an awesome guy to arrange for kidnappings and torture of innocent kids because somebody else doesn't keep shabbos. What a deity! What a god!

And then you wonder why not everyone believes in your version of Judaism.

amother

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 8:21 am

I read this in the link you provided, binayeseira:

Quote:

What this says is that the only reason we have cancer is because we are not “mushlam” (complete) in our avodas Hashem. If we would be, there would be no cancer.

My husband has just been diagnosed with leukemia.

Thank you for explaining it is all our fault.

ally

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 8:25 am

marina wrote:

There have been a number of rabbinic statements implying this is payback for the draft law.

marina

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 8:28 am

ally wrote:

There have been a number of rabbinic statements implying this is payback for the draft law.

you probably meant to put the word rabbinic in quotes.

5*Mom

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 8:35 am

Barbara wrote:

I think that was a quote gone awry.

Barbara

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 9:25 am

amother wrote:

I read this in the link you provided, binayeseira:

Quote:

What this says is that the only reason we have cancer is because we are not “mushlam” (complete) in our avodas Hashem. If we would be, there would be no cancer.

My husband has just been diagnosed with leukemia.

Thank you for explaining it is all our fault.

Omg.

Ignore her. Please. She's a fool.

I am praying for a complete recovery for your husband. And for strength for you.

Jewishmom8

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 9:30 am

I really am not wanting to add much to this debate but I will say that as a kollel wife for 15+ years
1. we pay full arnona and lots of wonderful taxes. that whole notion of kollel people not paying is not true.
2. no one knows why bad things happen to people. its not a good idea for anyone to say because of the draft or something else x y or x happens. that is really not ok. people should keep those unfortunate opinions to themselves.

happybeingamom

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 9:34 am

Nevuah/Prophecy has not been around for a few thousand years, please don't say that X caused Y. We have no idea.

Barbara

Sun, Jun 29 2014, 9:37 am

ally wrote:

There have been a number of rabbinic statements implying this is payback for the draft law.

So these rabbis think that Hashem figures the best way to show those pesky non-Charedim that army isn't a necessity is to cause an incident that requires massive military intervention.

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