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Spinoff: Putting daughter in Public school
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 3:41 am
I started replying to the post "Putting daughter in Public school b/c can't afford tuition" but then I felt bad. OP is having a hard enough time, she doesn't have to hear what I have to say cause what I have to say isn't for her personally. I'm so sure that she's tried everything. This is what I stated writing
Quote:
Makes me want to cry (sorry). I really hope this is temporary. I wouldn't worry about what she's actually learning but as she gets older her (not-Jewish) classmates will become her closest friends. They will be wonderful good people from good homes (I hope she's popular and have lots of friends) but there is 50% assimilation in America (I personally have 2 relatives intermarried). I know this sounds silly with a 2nd grader but I would be very scared. Maybe this is the wrong place to say this since you're really just a victim of the problem. When Jewish Education has elevated itself to such a high class level that it's only for the rich (or not for every Jew) there's a real problem

That's what I started writing and that's where I realized how sad American Jewry is. When Chinuch of the children isn't the top priority it's like throwing away our future. Even one child goes to public school and suddenly that 9th grade "boyfriend" grows up with her and they get married. Who's to blame? The American Jewish education system that strived so hard to make their elementary schools Ivy league standard that they lost sight of the goal of raising the next generation of Jews. There are many wealthy American Jews and they want that high standard for their kids and they can afford it but how did the standard get so high that not every Jewish child is entitled to a Jewish education together with other Jewish children?

Oh, I just realized that there have been other threads yelling about the cost of tuition. It never interested me (in Israel Jewish education is free). But this one really hit me hard cause it has a (amother) face on it. Maybe some of the posters looking for vacation/cruise information can help save a Jewish soul. (I didn't realize that I was going in this direction but maybe we can). Forget the vacation/cruise comment. I can send $100 (and I live in overdraft in Israel). How can we do this? I know this can open a can of worms but I don't think we have a choice
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Jewishmom8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 3:56 am
I think your really right.
I mean giving every jewish child a proper jewish chinuch has to come before every single thing. we are talking about a family that WANTS to send thier child to a yeshiva.
it is a tragedy.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 4:56 am
Sanguine,

American Jewish schools are really a huge subject. I feel bad for that amother - its hard to go against social norms.

I will try to post my full thoughts later.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 6:12 am
I agree with you 100%. But I am assuming she will move the child to Yeshiva when they get a little older. If she doesn't it is a big mistake.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 6:45 am
Sanguine wrote:
I started replying to the post "Putting daughter in Public school b/c can't afford tuition" but then I felt bad. OP is having a hard enough time, she doesn't have to hear what I have to say cause what I have to say isn't for her personally. I'm so sure that she's tried everything. This is what I stated writing
Quote:
Makes me want to cry (sorry). I really hope this is temporary. I wouldn't worry about what she's actually learning but as she gets older her (not-Jewish) classmates will become her closest friends. They will be wonderful good people from good homes (I hope she's popular and have lots of friends) but there is 50% assimilation in America (I personally have 2 relatives intermarried). I know this sounds silly with a 2nd grader but I would be very scared. Maybe this is the wrong place to say this since you're really just a victim of the problem. When Jewish Education has elevated itself to such a high class level that it's only for the rich (or not for every Jew) there's a real problem

That's what I started writing and that's where I realized how sad American Jewry is. When Chinuch of the children isn't the top priority it's like throwing away our future. Even one child goes to public school and suddenly that 9th grade "boyfriend" grows up with her and they get married. Who's to blame? The American Jewish education system that strived so hard to make their elementary schools Ivy league standard that they lost sight of the goal of raising the next generation of Jews. There are many wealthy American Jews and they want that high standard for their kids and they can afford it but how did the standard get so high that not every Jewish child is entitled to a Jewish education together with other Jewish children?

Oh, I just realized that there have been other threads yelling about the cost of tuition. It never interested me (in Israel Jewish education is free). But this one really hit me hard cause it has a (amother) face on it. Maybe some of the posters looking for vacation/cruise information can help save a Jewish soul. (I didn't realize that I was going in this direction but maybe we can). Forget the vacation/cruise comment. I can send $100 (and I live in overdraft in Israel). How can we do this? I know this can open a can of worms but I don't think we have a choice


The schools I send to hardly have an Ivy League standard. I am disgusted by the level of secular studies. Each year I struggle to keep my children at the level of the average public school student. The teachers aren't trained or certified. Certain subjects are not taught like English after the sixth grade. Half my tuition money goes to find this low level education. All of my retirement money is gone.

I can't change the heshkofar of the schools I sent to because according to everyone my kids will be "ruined." Their predictions for sending to a modem school are just as dire as OP's predictions about public schools. In the modern schools my kids might have a chance of receiving a half way decent education and being socialized that working is not a bad thing. The tuitions are significantly more money and I am not even sure how good their education is.

The only way I see to give every Jewish child whose parents want them to have a Jewish education is to dilute the education even further and even that is not going to keep up with the birthrate.

We have a population who are graduating without the skills, achievements and desire necessary to be able to support themselves. Who is going to educate their children?
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 6:51 am
Amother above me, you said it beautifully.

I know there are at least a few schools in the world that offer a good education in both LK and secular subjects, but they are hard to find and often not around the corner.

My solution is to supplement at home in every way I can, and to try to be a voice and a vote for school to improve in their areas of weakness. But there are no simple answers anywhere.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 7:57 am
Here are some of my thoughts.

1) Not everyone really prioritizes tuition money. If they did, they would be willing to first pay their tuition bill and then worry about other bills. For all the talk of "bitachon" and "emunah" it doesn't seem to pan out and tuition is the last bill many people prioritize for. Just read the threads here about luxuries people talk about as necessities (like cleaning help).

2) People take advantage of the scholarship situation. In the generations past, people didn't have to fill out long questionnaires detailing their budget. There was enough money to help out families in need, not families in want.

3) Tuition costs have skyrocketed relative to salary. This is a huge issue, especially in my area where most of the elementary schools cost $15-18,000 (with a great education). You can't expect everyone to earn $200,000 to send their kids to yeshiva. Its just not possible. If you live in Lakewood with cheap tuition, 8 kids in yeshiva at $6,000 is $48,000 in after tax money. So maybe you only need $150,000? Anyway, expecting anything in the 6 figures is crazy when you consider the average american household income.

4) Perhaps the "yeshiva for all" model isn't sustainable as a general community. Perhaps utilizing public school options in younger grades would alleviate a huge burden on the community. If "everyone" did it, socialization would be less of an issue since your kids can have a large amount of orthodox children in their class. Yes, in generations past public school was a problem for many kids, but fixing the problems could be a much better option (my mother went to PS, my uncle to yeshiva - both are observant today).
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 7:58 am
imasinger wrote:
Amother above me, you said it beautifully.

I know there are at least a few schools in the world that offer a good education in both LK and secular subjects, but they are hard to find and often not around the corner.

My solution is to supplement at home in every way I can, and to try to be a voice and a vote for school to improve in their areas of weakness. But there are no simple answers anywhere.


amother clearly sends her kids to a very frum school whose hashkafah she doesn't agree with.

Many Jewish schools offer an excellent secular education, especially M.O schools. These are easy to find (if expensive) in places like NJ and NY.
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 8:00 am
I knew I shouldn't have got into this. I assumed the OP OP (from the first thread) was MO. I think those schools aim for wealthier parents and that's the problem. But amother (above) is talking about a different thing (I think). She's talking about Chareidi school's whose ideology is to put secular studies very low. Really a different topic if I understand all the posts


ETA - I was typing this while Raisin was posting which why it sort of repeats
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 8:20 am
Firstly: Yeshiva ed and tuition ARE wants, not needs; the idea of first paying those bills and then making sure your family has food, a roof, medical care, and heat is preposterous. There are other ways to Jewishly educate children (not the least of which is homeschooling; the original Torah form of chinuch). Second: sending your kids to schools you hate (because of the Hashkafah, peer pressure, educational standard, etc) is probably not going to help your cause that much either. It's not just enough for them to learn Torah; they have to get that learning Torah is worthwhile and valuable if you want the message to stick long term. I know it's hard, but let's not play the victim. Yes, Yeshiva tuition is prohibitively exorbitant. Yes, the education is often substandard. But there really are alternatives, if you have the courage to explore them. Consider stepping outside your Hashkafic comfort zone, or joining a home school group. Try not to feel trapped by where you started.
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Dev80




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 8:21 am
When I read about the cost of tuition and how parents can't cope here and in the frum magazines, it really scares me.

I say this half jokingly but the thing that keeps me in Israel is I don't think I could afford tuition in America. I love living here, but I miss my family, but realistically even if I can't ever buy a home here in Israel at least my kids will be able to have a Jewish education and I won't be scared to have more kids b/c I can't afford their tuition. My oldest isn't even three and these are my very real thoughts!

I wish something could be done so that those who are living in America didn't have to make these kinds of decisions (and some people who get scholarship maybe they do need cleaning help we are not to judge!). But teachers have to be paid and schools have to be run...but yiddeshe neshamas need an education even though it's so darn expensive. At Sanguine's point about sending money it makes me think that maybe I should be sending some maaser $$ to my alma mater's scholarship fund.

This is sort of in circles but I guess my main point is that the tuition crisis is what keeps me in Israel even if that's not exactly lishma it really keeps me from running back to my family in the USA who I desperately miss!
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 8:24 am
Raisin wrote:
amother clearly sends her kids to a very frum school whose hashkafah she doesn't agree with.

Many Jewish schools offer an excellent secular education, especially M.O schools. These are easy to find (if expensive) in places like NJ and NY.


There are exactly zero schools with a good secular education in my town and there are dozens of schools.

There are no schools with a great secular education nearby. The Ivy League prep school is a total fantasy at least in this geographical location.

You can get a great Torah education but not much else.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 8:26 am
amother wrote:
Firstly: Yeshiva ed and tuition ARE wants, not needs; the idea of first paying those bills and then making sure your family has food, a roof, medical care, and heat is preposterous. There are other ways to Jewishly educate children (not the least of which is homeschooling; the original Torah form of chinuch). Second: sending your kids to schools you hate (because of the Hashkafah, peer pressure, educational standard, etc) is probably not going to help your cause that much either. It's not just enough for them to learn Torah; they have to get that learning Torah is worthwhile and valuable if you want the message to stick long term. I know it's hard, but let's not play the victim. Yes, Yeshiva tuition is prohibitively exorbitant. Yes, the education is often substandard. But there really are alternatives, if you have the courage to explore them. Consider stepping outside your Hashkafic comfort zone, or joining a home school group. Try not to feel trapped by where you started.


Amother, I agree. Yeshiva tuition is a want. But when someone says that yeshiva is a must and we have bitachon in paying are bills, but they pay tuition last, it makes me think they are insincere. Its ok to say "I think its important, but not important enough to give up my cleaning help" but own that opinion and don't pretend a yeshiva education is the number one priority for you. Its not. If its that important to you, then figure out how to pay for it.
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nylon




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 8:29 am
The American Jewish financial reality cannot be divorced from the general American financial reality.

It's easy to blame top tier MO schools that want their kids to go to the Ivies (creating a cycle where you need that expensive education to make the money to pay the tuition). But the reality is, a system that relies on everyone being able to pay private school tuition is not sustainable in the US economy. The middle class is stagnating and shrinking. Schools have to pay salaries. Some RW schools rely on teachers working for pennies. Not all schools can do this. (If you are competing on the general market for teachers, which many schools do especially OOT, you can only be so far behind public school pay.)

A lot of places don't have enough Jews that we can have high priced schools for the wealthy and no frills schools for the poor--on top of the hashkafic distinctions we already demand. I know about the one school in Bergen that is trying a cheaper model, $9K per student, but that's still out of reach for a lot of people. The bulk of costs is, again, personnel. Perhaps if we didn't demand multiple schools for small distinctions in hashkafa, we could achieve some efficiency, but again, not always possible.

Young couples are coming out of college with student loan bills and high housing costs. Frum communities are often located in expensive neighborhoods--not just NYC either. (And where the housing seems cheap to New Yorkers, it is NOT cheap relative to local incomes.) And they are already paying high property taxes. In the NYC area you can pay $20K on a 3 bedroom split on a regular (60'-80') lot.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 8:36 am
amother wrote:
Firstly: Yeshiva ed and tuition ARE wants, not needs; the idea of first paying those bills and then making sure your family has food, a roof, medical care, and heat is preposterous. There are other ways to Jewishly educate children (not the least of which is homeschooling; the original Torah form of chinuch). Second: sending your kids to schools you hate (because of the Hashkafah, peer pressure, educational standard, etc) is probably not going to help your cause that much either. It's not just enough for them to learn Torah; they have to get that learning Torah is worthwhile and valuable if you want the message to stick long term. I know it's hard, but let's not play the victim. Yes, Yeshiva tuition is prohibitively exorbitant. Yes, the education is often substandard. But there really are alternatives, if you have the courage to explore them. Consider stepping outside your Hashkafic comfort zone, or joining a home school group. Try not to feel trapped by where you started.


I would have loved to have home schooled or sent to a MO school or (gasp) even public school , but then we would be ostracized. My husband gets his parnosa and we get our happiness from the community so my children's education is the sacrifice. BH for the parnosa because someone is going to have to help support them when they are adults.

I don't know how you can teach subjects unless you are trained to either teach or trained in those subjects.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 8:47 am
nylon wrote:


It's easy to blame top tier MO schools that want their kids to go to the Ivies (creating a cycle where you need that expensive education to make the money to pay the tuition).


Same amother: Would you kindly tell me the name of these high schools? I am very interested in my children having a this type of education. Also if any of these schools are a little bit more to the right, I would appreciate that info also.
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Jewishmom8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 9:33 am
amother wrote:
Firstly: Yeshiva ed and tuition ARE wants, not needs; the idea of first paying those bills and then making sure your family has food, a roof, medical care, and heat is preposterous. There are other ways to Jewishly educate children (not the least of which is homeschooling; the original Torah form of chinuch). Second: sending your kids to schools you hate (because of the Hashkafah, peer pressure, educational standard, etc) is probably not going to help your cause that much either. It's not just enough for them to learn Torah; they have to get that learning Torah is worthwhile and valuable if you want the message to stick long term. I know it's hard, but let's not play the victim. Yes, Yeshiva tuition is prohibitively exorbitant. Yes, the education is often substandard. But there really are alternatives, if you have the courage to explore them. Consider stepping outside your Hashkafic comfort zone, or joining a home school group. Try not to feel trapped by where you started.


I don't agree with you
I would forgo food in order to give my children the best possible jewish education out there.
if that means moving you move.
if that means going to thrift shops or gmachs for clothes you do it.
its more important that anything.
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granolamom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 9:36 am
Raisin wrote:
I agree with you 100%. But I am assuming she will move the child to Yeshiva when they get a little older. If she doesn't it is a big mistake.


maybe yes, maybe no. how could anyone know if anything is a 'huge mistake' for a child and a family they've never met? have you never met people who were destroyed by yeshivos? or amazingly strong people who are public school graduates? I have. who knows what G-d has planned for this child?
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 9:42 am
amother wrote:
Same amother: Would you kindly tell me the name of these high schools? I am very interested in my children having a this type of education. Also if any of these schools are a little bit more to the right, I would appreciate that info also.

Maimo in Boston
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Jewishmom8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 07 2014, 9:44 am
granolamom wrote:
maybe yes, maybe no. how could anyone know if anything is a 'huge mistake' for a child and a family they've never met? have you never met people who were destroyed by yeshivos? or amazingly strong people who are public school graduates? I have. who knows what G-d has planned for this child?

only god knows what will happen to a child.
it is our job as parents to try the best we can with our children.
hashem gave us that job when he gave us children. we don't say go play outside all day long to a 3 year old because god is watching. hashem gives children parents to do that job.
of course people had problems with yeshivos. what does that have to do with anything?
there are amazingly strong people who are public school graduates.
but to say that they got the same level of a jewish education and upbringing is not true. it is a major uphill battle in every way.
it is a major risk. can it work? sure. but it is a huge risk and a tremendous disservice to a child
in this generation where there are SO many schools all over the world.
I am not talking about kids with special needs who only have a public school option.
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