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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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MaBelleVie

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 2:38 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

This is a discussion. She doesn't have to justify it to anyone, but most emotionally healthy people don't need weekly manicures to do so. In her case, it may have been essential.

The point is, many people confuse need and want and aren't willing to sacrifice wants for tuition. That's their choice, but at least they shouldn't profess that yeshiva is THE most important thing. (not talking about granolamom, just to be clear, this is a general statement) Tuition may come lower down like owning a home or having cleaning help. People should at least own up to their philosophy!

Yeah, well someone decided to be amother for the sole purpose of showing granolamom where she's going wrong and how she can save money. It was obnoxious.

amother

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 5:57 pm

mille wrote:

Or, perhaps, individual people (especially teenagers!) do what they want, whether it's right or not, and you really can't judge a large group like the whole of 'modern orthodoxy' by the few kids you went to high school with. I also know plenty who were relatively "deviant" in MO yeshiva high school but are now totally frum adults. You'd never know. Kids are kids, to an extent. I'd argue that some kids in more right wing yeshivot are up to no good as well, just perhaps about different things (again, knowing people who went to such schools and did not so kosher things). I mean, plenty of stories on imamother of girls being taught all kinds of lascivious details in beis yakov at way too young an age!

Also, there are families who are just not religious, but value good Jewish education. Some send to solomon schecter and similar schools, but others DO send to MO schools because they are convenient and a good level of education. It really wouldn't make sense for a secular family to send their secular kids to a very right wing yeshiva that teachers no secular subjects or way too limited to be successful in secular college... So MO yeshivot are a good middle ground to that. Yet another reason why you might not want to generalize that all MO are one way or another based on the activities of some kids in yeshiva.

I mean, I can't really say much else because aside from having se-x and doing drugs, I can't possibly fathom what might be damaging or what might "ruin" a high school boy from the rest of your list. Tongue Out

I don't know if they mean "ruin" for shidduch purposes or yiddishkeit or not being a respectful son and brother. Are they just talking about externals? Because it would be easy enough to put on a white shirt when he comes home. He could wear his hat on Shabbos and have smaller peyos.

I am concerned about my son straddling both worlds. If my son becomes more modern, I have been warned, then his friends will no longer associate with him. I would like, if this were possible, for my son to be more modern on the inside without him being an outcast at home. In the alternative, I would like him to have a good education and not be torn by externals.

This "ruined" thing seems so Victorian and dramatic.

MaBelleVie

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 5:59 pm

If he goes to a MO school they will reject him no matter what his outward appearance. Such is the nature of highly insular communities.

Why don't you simply hire professional tutors if all you care about is the education?

amother

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 6:15 pm

DrMom wrote:

I grew up attending US public schools and my friends didn't smoke pot or fool around. It depends with whom you choose to hang out.

OP, you have to decide how much the opinion of others matters to you. Obviously, your community prizes insularity to the point where they would make up nonsense in order to keep people on the path they feel is correct.

Use your common sense. Wearing a colored shirt is not some secret MO fashion code word for "I fool around with girls and take drugs." It's just a shirt. And in the MO world, "talking to girls" does not mean one has intimate relationships with them. It just means one considers them to be humans worthy of conversation. Or it means one is trying to get to know them better -- a normal part of deciding if you might someday want to date someone. It is nothing devious or perverse.

Decide how much conformity to your community's standards is important to you an your family. Take this into account when deciding what is best for your child.

It is not the opinion others outside my family that matters to me. I wouldn't be considering this course for my son. I would send to the learning high schools that his elementary school feeds into. I would anticipate the same future for him as all his other peers one where he sits and learns while his in laws, his wife, tzedduchah and the government support him and his children. I want him to be able to earn a decent living and contribute financially to the community.

I don't believe there is a conspiracy to make up anything. I think these people are sincere in their belief that my son will be ruined if he goes to MTA. Even the most modern professional ones are uniform in their belief this is a bad thing.

I think maybe in the non MO world talking to girls means dating girls. It means crossing certain lines and losing ones innocence (not necessarily virginity) before they are married. I hear this about talking to girls a lot.

amother

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 6:22 pm

catonmylap wrote:

I'm married to an MTA graduate.

He wears colored shirts...though he doesn't own a pair of jeans.

He's never smoked pot that I know of. As far as I know, he had his first girlfriend at 19 during his year in Israel. He went to Israel wearing a black hat, but came home in a kipa srugah. He made aliya right after YU. He learned in kollel for the first 2 years we were married before we went on shlichut where he was a community Rabbi.

He has a BA from YU and got smicha in Israel. He's very serious about yiddishkeit. He davens with minyan whenever possible, he learns on his own, and works. Does he sound ruined?

Your husband sounds like a fine man. He was able to attend MTA in a black hat?

Happy18

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 6:26 pm

amother wrote:

Your husband sounds like a fine man. He was able to attend MTA in a black hat?

Why wouldn't he? Plenty of YU guys wear black hats.

amother

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 6:31 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Home schooling is not an option in this community. The family is viewed as defective. It would not be an option to further supplement his secular studies. There is the matter of finding the time and then the added problem of finding the tutors who can fit in his schedule.

My son has an incredibly long day as it is. He is always complaining he has no free time. I would like him to have a more balanced schedule.

amother

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 6:35 pm

Happy18 wrote:

Why wouldn't he? Plenty of YU guys wear black hats.

.

Thank you. I didn't know that. Amother told me that the boys all wear colored shirts at MTA. She said that I should anticipate and want my son to be modern.

I am so confused.

Chana Miriam S

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 6:40 pm

My children both went to Jewish school until they finished grade 8. Both have been to public high school. When son was finished grade8, he did not want yeshiva. NOW WE ARE LOOKING INTO POST HIGH SCHOOL YESHIVA AT HIS REQUEST. Unlike some Kids I know who went to yeshiva and are totally off the derech.

Dd likes her school and her programme. She dresses modestly and while her dress is not strictly tznius(neither are some of her Frum friends in Jewish schools, and she is no worse) and she is still very jewishly connected.

I think that there is a huge difference between a Frum kid going to public school but living Frumly than a secular Jewgoing. Even so, I went to public school, so did my sisters and we ALL married Jewish men and keep some form of kosher and send kids to Jewish school til grade 8.
We weren't religious at all but we were culturally Jewish.

My Frum friend has a child who is a ger who is dating a Cohen. To me, this former bais Yaakov students problem is just as big as a non religious kid going to public school.

The sky is not falling.the sky is not falling. The sky is not falling.

Happy18

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 6:54 pm

amother wrote:

.

Thank you. I didn't know that. Amother told me that the boys all wear colored shirts at MTA. She said that I should anticipate and want my son to be modern.

I am so confused.

YU has a huge mix. There is no all. Also I know guys who wear black hats and colored shirts.

Chana Miriam S

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 6:57 pm

marina wrote:

Am I the only one who knows quite a few very frum kids who go to public school?

Am I the only one who thinks it depends on the family and the school district and the home?

Am I the only one who thinks that blatant OMG YOU ARE SENDING YOUR CHILD TO PUBLIC SCHOOL SHE WILL MARRY A GENTILE AND HER CHILDREN WILL BE LOST TO KLAL YISROEL is a little too much?

Agreed. See my post above

MaBelleVie

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 7:01 pm

Did you discuss these options with your son? He's old enough to have some idea of which direction he would like to take.

amother

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 7:06 pm

Happy18 wrote:

YU has a huge mix. There is no all. Also I know guys who wear black hats and colored shirts.

I was thinking this, but I didn't want to ask because I didn't want to offend anyone.

Is there some significance with the white shirt that I am not privy to? I have also asked this IRL.

boysrus

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 7:09 pm

amother wrote:

.

Thank you. I didn't know that. Amother told me that the boys all wear colored shirts at MTA. She said that I should anticipate and want my son to be modern.

I am so confused.

maybe you should go visit YU to get a better feel for it?

amother

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 7:15 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Did you discuss these options with your son? He's old enough to have some idea of which direction he would like to take.

My son is a very smart boy and he doesn't want to get involved in this discussion because he knows his father and I have a different philosophy. To a certain extent he closes down when I try to discuss it. He wants to please us both. He tells me that he is a kid and it is up to me to decide.

My husband I compromised at a YU education. It is up to me how to decide how to make sure he is prepared to go there.

amother

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 7:22 pm

boysrus wrote:

maybe you should go visit YU to get a better feel for it?

The school actually recommends a visit to MTA. It is the real life opposition to MTA which has me concerned.

As I wrote on a recent post, my husband and I compromised on a YU education. He was opposed to university and I want our children to have an advanced education. YU seems to be the only option we can agree on even if it is not a perfect fit.

amother

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 7:29 pm

amother wrote:

I was thinking this, but I didn't want to ask because I didn't want to offend anyone.

Is there some significance with the white shirt that I am not privy to? I have also asked this IRL.

I'm trying to get the hangup on the white shirt. Other parts I understand, but not the white shirt part.
My DH is a graduate of Lakewood cheder and highschool. , in high school he wore colored shirts because there was no standard not to.
He works in manual labor today and still wears colored shirts. everyone is fine with it. he learns, he davens, gives a shiur, he puts on a hat to bench, follows daas torah, has watched 3 movies in his life probably. And yet we wears a colored shirt.
Recently he was given some slack for it, but he went to talk to his rav and the mashgiach and both didn't see a reason to change. He is more comfortable with his colored shirts.
problem is that as the city changes and more people move here wearing colored shirts but don't live the yeshivish lifestyle I think he will be perceived differently in the future. But for now I think he is still ok.
I sometimes thinks the white shirt just shows which affiliation you feel connected to.

naturalmom5

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 9:26 pm

Colored shirts in Lakewood is wearing cribs tattoos in bloods turf,no more and no less

MaBelleVie

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 9:35 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Colored shirts in Lakewood is wearing cribs tattoos in bloods turf,no more and no less

Autocorrect I guess. Anyway that isn't true. I know a number of people in Lakewood who wear colored shirts, and no one says boo.

Barbara

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 10:17 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Colored shirts in Lakewood is wearing cribs tattoos in bloods turf,no more and no less

Thanks. I needed that. Rolling Laughter

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